Imperial College, what's it really like?

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Ideally I would prefer my DCs to make evidence-based decisions for their university choices rather than from whims and possibly unfounded rumours (most arising from classmates with no direct knowledge of places). I realise that I may be fighting a losing battle though.
Imperial College is a bit of a dilemma. My DC applied there for physics without going for an open day. Recently had interview (which did not go badly) liked the interviewer but put off for several reasons. The first is that the tutorial groups are of 20 facilitated by one senior academic and one PhD student. DC is from a state school with very large sixth form classes for the maths and science so would really like smaller tutorial groups at university (as well as good quality academic teaching of course)
The second reason ars the rumours about the lack of social life at Imperial backed by the interview group being almost all international students (with international sounding American accents).
Has anybody got anything positive or reassuring to say about IC?

Oh and can I add the tutor groups seem massive to me, is that correct? My university was 2-3 students per tutor. You literally had nowhere to hide. Terrifying. But I learnt a lot which is the whole point!

Basilisk I really do see the point. I just think this lad couldn't see beyond the point of London = bad, even though that was so where he had wanted to study. And at Imperial in particular.

Another friend's son was devastated not to get an offer from Imperial. He had already got the Imperial sweatshirts - it was his dream! Since gone to Loughborough and says his friends who are actually at Imperial are missing out on something.

I have nothing against the place, but don't hear many positive experiences I I live in Surrey so have many friends' DC who get places there and live at home/moan about the cost of living out!

I think it is a fab place to put on your CV, but not necessarily a fab place to be as a student. My DD is studying elsewhere, but it is a place I would've advised her to avoid.

It's all science at ICL, there are no Arts students: that will have an effect on the vibe.

Pah. Who needs art students when you have geologists... We knew how to work hard and play hard...

I graduated 10 years ago so things change and I applied for three Unis in London so that was clearly where I wanted to be but unless things have gone rapidly down hill there was a really good social scene, lots of sports and clubs and with each department having their own unions and clubs a wide variety of people to socialise with... But it was expensive - I paid for a decrepit halls in south Ken the same a week as my friends up north paid for a month...

Although yes agree with a pp - my physics friends will have had no problems paying off their debts..!

Interesting thread. Am going to show DS1 who has interview for Elec Eng.

TobyZiegler another tick for fun physicists (but she whispers -did that include hard working international Asian students?-).
Yes it is correct about the size of the tutorial group, that is what they were told when shown round. I also (being disbelieving) checked on the Imperial College website which states this
In years 1 and 2 you will be a member of a tutorial class of about 20 students. Each tutorial class will have two tutors associated with it, who are members of the academic staff. There may also be Research Associates and Postgraduate students associated with each tutorial class.
However DC said that students specifically told them that it was one tutor and one postgraduate per group.

BTW having quizzed DC, UCL has the reputation of being pretty sociable so IC does seem to be a special case.

Op, what are the other universities that your DD is looking at?
DD's friend is doing physics at Durham and loving it.
I think the most important thing in terms of friendships is where and who your daughter lives with.
Both my DDs chose northern universities in the end and have made lots of friends. DD2 did consider London but after feedback from some of DD1's friends decided she would prefer a more Campus based experience. She is on a course that is predominantly male so having the chance to socialise with females was important to her.

hellsbelle9. yes Durham is one of the offers so that is useful to know.

I have checked the proportions of student nationalities at IC
This is an interesting link

www.imperial.ac.uk/admin-services/strategic-planning/statistics/trend-analysis/student-nationality/

I did my PhD at Imperial. DH did his undergrad and PhD there. We both left around 15 years ago. Neither of us studied physics.

My impression was that the postgrads (and post docs) socialised more than the undergrads did. Partly this was down to money - London is expensive, and the area around Imperial especially so. Many undergrads simply couldn't afford to socialise.

I got the impression that a lot of people did spend their free time working. For example, at 9pm on a Friday evening the library was typically busier than the bar.

I made some really good friends while I was there, but then I was older and already had 4 years of student life behind me. I don't think I'd have coped if I'd done my undergrad there.

I never felt that the college cared about me at all. I was just a number to them. In fact Imperial is the only one of the 3 universities I attended that I don't give money to these days. I have very fond memories of the people, but not of the place.

I went to imperial and loved it! My mate was a physicist there and had an incredibly active social life. I lived in intercollegiate halls and have friends from all the different unis. I actually found Kings to be more of the über rich and pretty than imperial, where people were more themselves.

London is expensive though. I worked extra jobs as did some of my friends. Saying that though, london is absolutely amazing and worth the extra expense.

DC is from a state school with very large sixth form classes for the maths and science so would really like smaller tutorial groups at university.

I haven't read the full thread, but would point out that Imperial already has smallish tutorial groups compared to most universities. You aren't going to do better, except at Oxbridge. 9k per year just doesn't pay for groups of half a dozen.

BTW there is no evidence that small tutorial groups are necessary to excel in Physics. Oxbridge is pretty much the only place in the world that does this. Other world leading physics departments don't do tutorials in tiny groups.

And just to add: places like MIT, Caltech have their tutorial sessions run entirely by PhD students. Faculty don't even teach tutorial sessions and they sure don't teach one-to-one. Yet many of the top physicists in the world come from these universities.

While I had one-to-one and one-to-two tutorials at Oxbridge, I would say that I really excelled at postgraduate (fourth year) when these no longer existed and I had to delve much deeper on my own. As an academic teaching, I deeply resent the Oxbridge system in which one has to repeat over and over the same things, in one tutorial after another. Imo It is an enormous waste of academics time (in a science subject, humanities is very different).

And the difference between 1:10 and 1:20 in tutorials is pretty much negligible. As soon as you have more than one or two students in a tutorial, then you tend to switch to explaining everything to the whole class at a board, with questions from the students. The onus is on the students to ask about what they don't understand.

It is because that it is so expensive to live and go out in London plus the amount of time spent studying that DC is concerned about potential friendships and fun with fellow course students during the 'work' day. It can be an effort always being the one initiating the conversation.

User721 I have no doubt that concepts can be taught well in large groups particularly with bright students and that it is more time efficient for academics and cheaper for the university. However what DC would like (after sixth form experience) is a bit more of an opportunity for discussion and interesting questions. Does that just not happen between physics academics and students at undergraduate level whatever the university?

I don't know about physics, but as an academic, I can say that there is always a set amount I have to go through in my seminar groups. I try and leave time for free flow conversations (and we have many of those), but I find that once the reality of how hard they have to work to keep up dawns on most students, they just want to get through the curriculum (and want me to help them with that), rather than the 'interesting questions'. I always leave time for it, but I'd be kidding myself if I thought that's what the students wanted. Frequently, those conversations happen outside the classroom and are often hugely productive.

Does that just not happen between physics academics and students at undergraduate level whatever the university?

As pp just wrote, students are working hard to keep up with the curriculum. Physics (maths, engineering etc) at university often come as a big shock to students as the amount of content and the pace is way, way higher than at school. Most students are not looking to go beyond the curriculum or to discuss "interesting questions". They are looking to master the material on the problem sheets that are discussed in tutorials. Mastering this material is already "interesting enough".

BTW there is always time at the end of tutorials for students to raise questions or start discussions. But very few students use this time for anything other than questions about lecture material or problem sheets. Postgraduate students can deal with the vast majority of such questions with no problem. Questions which are beyond them can be referred to the more senior academics but it is rare that this is necessary.

Thanks Luchi. I am sure you are right about the reality of just keeping up. However I can understand why DC is yearning for more at this stage. After all most studying is done alone so the idea of discussions between fellow students and academics who are enthusiastic and have the knowledge is motivating.
I agree with DC though that for any chance of even short free flowing discussions in groups of 20 (or after tutorials) you need students who are happy and keen to talk and question. Which comes back to the worry of what the other IC students will be like.

Thanks user721. This is all very useful.

I actually found Kings to be more of the über rich and pretty
Yes, we were all perfect.

Watching this thread with interest because DS2 is interested in applying to Imperial to study Physics. Outreach teams from the college visit his state secondary school to give talks and workshops, and he is completely converted. I have explained that other undergraduate Physics departments exist.

So as the poster below me has said, I think a lot of our undergrads come in with the expectation that University will be like school, maybe a little more work, but now free of the A level curriculum, full of opportunities for engaging stuff. (I'm not saying it isn't btw...I'm not that cynical). And then reality dawns. Which is that it is MUCH MUCH harder, just getting through the bulk of the work each week and having some spare time is a struggle, and making sure core concepts/ideas are digested is much harder than they imagined.
My niece is doing maths at a RG uni. I sent her a text last evening saying, 'looking forward to the end of term?' (my sister's family and we do Christmas jointly) and she wrote back saying: 'Ugh. I'm just surviving. Just about keeping up with work Don't mention Christmas.' This is a girl with 4 As at A level, 12As at GCSE, who is actually in her second year, on course for getting a First with some effort, and has managed a very high 2:1 so far. I'm not trying to terrify you, seriously. But I really really don't think the level of academic discourse at Imperial will be any lower than Durham or Nottingham. So mastering the material, and keeping up with assigned work will challenge him sufficiently. Even our top students only begin to explore beyond the curriculum in their third year.

I'm lurking too as dd is interested in Imperial as one of her options. The main thing that worries me is accommodation - that there is no way she will be able to afford anything reasonably close and decent.

Well I did my first degree in Cambridge (engineering)because although I visited IC It seemed grim and urban in comparison. More recently I did an MSc at IC after working 10 years in industry. I can say in hindsight that turning down option of IC as undergraduate in favour of lawns and punting was one of the stupidest decisions of my life.

Everything about the teaching, the course, the notes, the labs was absolutely world class. I remember walking down the corridor of my department and every door had the name of someone I recognised as an author or expert.

I haven't RTFT on my phone; but really all universities are not the same. There seemed to be plenty of social life in IC and UL.

Regarding accommodation, in London it's usual for the non-super-rich to live half an hour (or more) from college, which means that the student can look at more affordable areas. In my first year at King's, I lived in an intercollegiate hall. In the second and third years, I lived further out from the centre (south east and then north east) with a 40 minute commute door-to-door. Most of my friends did the same. I can assure you that it didn't affect our social lives.

Aso where has the idea about solitary study come from? I would expect like engineering, Physics will be full of labs, practicals and lectures. There will be a lot of time on the department. not like arts where there are just a few lectures and loads of reading and essays. There will be plenty of interaction.

I have checked the proportions of student nationalities at IC.

All London universities are very international. Without making sweeping generalisations about how nationality correlates with behaviour, how can you interpret the proportions of student nationalities? (It's deeply offensive to imply that hard working Asian scientists are unlikely to be fun.)

The reality is that the top UK physics courses are all very highly valued and it is personal taste which one to choose. For my DC the international nature of Imperial would be a plus point, as knowledge of other cultures and networking with international students is very valuable in a globalised economy. But then my family fits into a category that OP considers unlikely to be fun.

user7214 sight 'international is a plus.
You can find it deeply offensive to imply that hard working Asian scientists are unlikely to be fun but either there is some truth in it or it is a complete fabrication from perpetuated rumours by British teenagers and students. There is also the possibility that 'being fun' is reserved for fellow Asians in their own language and that interactions with others is polite but superficial.
Being 'deeply offended' is a bit of a cop out
does not help either way in resolving this but just continues the rumours.

Reading between the lines from what you say about the teaching then there seems to be the option of able PhD student (low paid) teaching (so time commitment to teaching is passed down the food chain by the academics) or a university that potentiallly attracts less PhD students able to do teaching but the more senior academics do it themselves.
Or Oxbrudge that still make their postdocs or above academics do it but with resulting major time pressure and some resentment.

User7214 your family may well be 'fun' in a teenagers eyes. Or you may encourage your DCs to make choices in a very serious, CV building ways. IMO international networking and friendships are more likely at university if students have fun together.