UCAS: Cambridge or Oxford?

[user1473771286]

DD is interested in studying economics at Cambridge. The predicted grade is AAA, not all A (due to a low A grade in one of the AS science subjects). Is this good enough for Cambridge? or is Oxford easier? She got straight A in GCSE. Any advice? Many thanks.

Also the tests aren't really looking at breadth per se are they? Isn't it more about links and intellectual creativity, that sort of thing, on any area you've covered in the relevant syllabus?

Not at all. Many independents get their results through smaller classes, potentially fewer disruptive pupils, and clear homework schedules. Its what people pay for. Its particuarly marked in West London where some relatively unselective small girls schools get some very impressive results.

Hopefully the tests will identify potential students who can think and work independently, whatever their background.

Other independent schools will provide a lot of opportunities along "debating society" lines which allow students to stretch themselves and gain confidence in their own views and creativity. . But again good state schools will as well.

I think it's a daunting year for all students: am not sure that Cambridge is expecting to achieve a broader social mix as am not sure that they know what to expect. My DC's school is working on the basis of the previous aptitude tests issued by both universities and their own judgement, and telling pupils just to practise lots of tough questions in their own time. Am sure they wont make 2E offers though as they cant rely on a 2 hour exam and interview alone, and will want to ensure students are encouraged to work all year!

'Hoping' isn't precisely the same as 'expecting', WIOAIG!

Think we are clearly in total agreement then!

May I just give a warning on how horrendously competitive and brutal Oxbridge entrance is? My DD had an offer from Oxford of AAA. She missed the A in each of her three essay subjects by 1 raw mark. We have had remarks but because of the new system none of them have moved, Oxford wouldn't budge and I have been left to pick up the pieces with a heartbroken child on my hands. Be very sure that this is what you are prepared for- we most certainly were not. Please don't get over- invested in the dream of Oxbridge- both for your child's sake and for your own sanity.

upthebracket We were in a similar position last year, my dd needed AAA, got AA*B plus an A in her EPQ. Missed the other A by less than half a percent but they wouldn't budge.

A year on, she is very happy elsewhere, loved her insurance as soon as she got there. In fact, she feels she has dodged a bullet having seen the stress her BF has been under last year (at Oxford).

I hope your dd can also put her disappointment behind her and move on.

Upthebeacket that is a very good point. Is your dd going to her insurance - if so i hope she has a really great time. how disappointing for her to have missed by such a close margin. So glad that next poster (sorry, can't remember name!) dd has had a great time at her insurance.

In my (possibly controversial!) view it's for that kind of reason that it's by no means the case that a dc who 'could' get into oxbridge is best off applying - a dteen has to weigh up the additional pressure of the application against the advantages if you get in. I remember a mner describing how 'binary' an application to oxbridge is is - if they don't get in most applicants see that as a 'failure' (i know it isn't!) and can be left very down just two terms before a levels exams, or just after results. whereas not getting an offer from one of your other choices is for some reason much less crushing. Of course i know our dteens have to learn to cope with rejection! But there are so many other excellent universities in the uk that It is sensibly to weigh up carefully whether you want to go through that, at this in any case stressful stage in your life. Some schools do point this out - my dc's did - others do not.

Ps i know some other universities are making very high offers as well - but for some reason i think the disappointment of not making an oxbr offer may seem worse. I've hesitated about whether to post this, because it may seem like negative 'don't aspire' advice! It isn't meant to be, but i do think it's worth a dteen thinking about whether that level of competiton is for them, when there are so many great alternatives.

Thank you so much for that-it does help . It's just all so raw at the moment, and I just wanted other mums to be aware of what they are exposing themselves and their child to. You can prepare and work as much as believe me my DD did ( and yours too I'm sure ) but don't ever think that you are remotely in control of any of it or that any quarter will be given. I just wish I had known quite how brutal and impersonal Oxford are before we ever got involved- and it's a hard lesson for my gentle bookworm to have to learn at 18. But bless you for taking the trouble to reply. I trust and hope that all will be well, I just wish I could have spared her this ordeal and honestly don't think Oxford was ever worth all her heartache.

Oh your poor dd - she sounds lovely. I realise you won't want to identify her by saying where she is going, so we can't try to cheer her up by pps coming on to say it's a great place! But she may well find like deco's dd that she comes to be glad that she is there rather than oxbr. Oxbr can, as deco sugests, be hard going when you're there as well, and i don't think it's the right place for every clever dteen (which is a good thing, obviously...)

As far as i know other european countries don't have the equivalent of an oxbr - perhaps ena in france? My impression is that there are more and less prestigious universities in european countries but no obvious 'head and shoulders' winners. (Not my view of oxbr, i should add!)

Your dd can also remember she did incredibly well to get the offer - most applicants don't even get that far!

Personally i think a* offers are incredibly stressful, and for me if i were a dteen that would be another factor in the equation of whether to apply to Oxbr, or accept an offer. (Though i know some other universities are making them as well!). Thank you both for coming onto the thread - i'm grateful to be reminded, as have a dc who will be making decisions soon.

Obviously sorry for upthebracket's dd, but otoh I think it is fair that Oxbridge make high offers, unlike the olden days when 2EEs were offered. It's a belt and braces approach, so that those who get offers via predictions, tests, interview then actually manage to demonstrate they can achieve great academic results.

Sympathies to upthebracket's DD and hope she enjoys where she ends up enormously. It's quite likely she might have hated Oxford - I know very bright kids who just scraped in and then hated it as they really struggled with the work and on reflection wish they had gone to one of the other great places they had offers from. My own Dsis always says she would have been much better off going elsewhere.

And just to give you all a fright - I know multiple children receiving offers of 4 As from Cambridge over the last few years. Now that's* what I call stressful!

Of course Rhoda- I have no objection to the bar being high. But what do you say to your child when she says that my whole academic career came down to one mark? She has 10A* at GCSE, 4 A's at AS and got a very high score in the TSA pre-test. If that isn't enough for Oxford to give her the benefit of the doubt inherent in the marking of public exams then I think other Mners should know about it.

I discussed "Why is it worse to get rejected from Oxbridge than anywhere else?" with DH this morning (we are both Oxbridge). We decided that it's definitely partly bullshit prestige - fifty years ago there was a huge gap between Oxbridge and ... everyone else, but that really doesn't exist any more.

But maybe part of it is because of the interview system. Getting rejected from somewhere that's never met you can be brushed off; getting rejected from somewhere that interviewed you for hours is more personal.

As an aside, although it's definitely valid to point out that a practically flawless record can end up being ignored if that one last mark evades you, it's worth remarking that her final rejection will have had far more to do with the other candidates than her own self.

A college just doesn't know how many of its candidates will actually make their grades. Say they have ten places; for logistical reasons they want ten people to fill them, but statistically one or two will miss a grade. So they make eleven offers.

Come results day, six make their grades. Three slip by one grade, two crash and burn. The three ring up in a panic; the tutors review their paperwork and say "you know what, this candidate is genuinely still good enough, and we've got enough wriggle room - she's in."

OR

Come results day, ten make their grades, and one misses by 1 raw mark. They have ten places and ten offers to honour. No wriggle room.

I've known plenty of people miss their grades and still get in - because they fell into the first situation and not the second. That has far less to do with their results and far more to do with everyone else's. They might have absolutely loved her, but if they don't have a place they don't have it.

But what do you say to your child when she says that my whole academic career came down to one mark?

It hasn't though, has it? This hasn't changed the fact that she has still had an excellent academic career to date, and will go on to an excellent university, and can continue to do brilliantly.

She has 10A at GCSE, 4 A's at AS and got a very high score in the TSA pre-test.*

There will be applicants who did all this and got A*AA+ in their A-levels and still didn't get a place. I don't think it would be there on them to take applicants who don't make the offer unless there is an exceptional reason.

I think you are right though - all applicants should go in to the process understanding that however brilliantly they have done up to this point, the acceptance rate is very low and there is a lot of uncertainty. Lots of excellent candidates don't get a place. Nobody should count on a place and nobody should take it as a personal failure - or the end of a successful academic career - when they don't get a place. I don't think it should be a reason not to try, but it is important to remember at every stage.

Aaargh the in A messed up my highlighting there!

My impression this year is that there is less wriggle room than in the past and Oxbridge is now v reluctant to accept near misses. I have come around to the idea of single exam boards as for certain subjects it doesn't feel like a level playing field. How can it be for certain modules in Maths that a candidate needs to achieve what is in effect 97% to achieve 90 UMS/A* for what is reputed to be the hardest exam board? Madness.

I also can't understand a uni rejecting a candidate who achieves 2 x A*s (one in degree subject) and 1 B (in a subject in which the mark-scheme is less clear cut) for a 3 x A offer.

I agree upthebracket - glad to have been reminded, and also thank you workingitout for the info about 4 A offers - gosh! All additional info to go into the decision-making is welcome. I would be very ambivalent about a dc accepting a conditional 4 A offer from anywhere, though obviously the decision is for the dteens not the parents.

But I am sure many dparents would disagree with me, and say go for it because how annoying if you rejected the offer and then got 4 A*s - which is also a valid point of view!

I have to admit I don't know what the rationale behind the old 2 E offers was - I suppose at that time O and C were sufficiently confident about the reliability of the entrance exam, and also suppose things were less competitive then.

User, hope your dd has a great time wherever she goes. It's unlikely to comfort her now, but it may not be her whole academic career dependent on that one mark - she can still study somewhere excellent, and if she wants to go on to do postgrad she can apply to Oxbr then. But I realise it that is unlikely to be much consolation at the moment!

• messes up bolding in the iPad app, you may find some of these posts more comprehensible if you read them in a browser.

Agree Mrs H and also I think the fact that the Oxbr interviews are more of an 'event' (sometimes you stay the night at the college, hang around for interviews at second colleges etc) makes the application a much bigger 'thing' than even the interviews at other universities that interview, where it is a brisk hour or so of interviews, goodbye.

Not commenting on whether that is necessary or desirable, but it's just my impression that it all makes it more of a big event, and therefore it's more of an issue to be rejected. Also that realistically it is is certainly regarded and presented as the top desideratum at many schools (except for some degree courses perhaps) whereas there is not so much to choose between the 'next rank' of universities in terms of reputation so if a deteen gets rejected by one but accepted by another the dteen is generally pretty happy.
(And I know that in terms of the courses etc, there is actually quite a lot to choose! but it's just that the outside world's opinion is not so polarised!)

Thanks for that Mrs H and irreg- of course you are both right and I don't want to come across as some raving mad woman with a grievance. My DD herself said if I had smashed it they would have had to take me and I obviously didn't. I think you are right Mrs H, it is the fact of being interviewed and getting through all that that makes it feel so much more personal when the college in question turn her away like that. And if I could feel certain about A level marking then it would be easier to accept.

Hey ho. She is going to her insurance and determined to try to put this behind her. She says she wants to get a First and apply to Oxford for postgrad, so we'll see- although I have absolutely learnt my lesson with all that! Journey hopefully, but don't predicate your happiness on it. Incidentally two kids who interviewed with her at the same college in Oxford are also going to her uni so she'll be with kindreds!

Thank you all for your support and kindness- good luck to your DC's and saddle up!

I think it is true to say that Oxford ( I don't know about Cambridge) is less likely to accept near misses these days. It's certainly true in PPE. I think that is for two reasons. First, the offer has been AAA for a long time - we've not adopted A* offers. At the same time, the number of candidates getting AAA has gone up - it probably isn't as demanding as it used to be.

More importantly, there is more and more awareness of the need to be seen to be as fair as possible. We need to balance the desire to maintain decision making by college tutors as far as possible, while ensuring that the right applicants get a place at Oxford, regardless of the college. We try to have a system that prevents stronger candidates being turned down by over subscribed colleges, while a weaker candidate may be accepted elsewhere. It also trys to prevent candidates who don't make their grades getting a place, while candidates who do make their grades lose out.

One part of that system is a lot of reallocation between colleges at various stages. A second is the small but growing number of "open offers". These applicants will get a place, but at an unspecified college. So if one of "my" applicants misses their grades, I will take an open offer candidate instead. This didn't used to exist, and it obviously makes it much less likely that I will accept a near miss.

All subjects work differently in the detail, but they are all moving in this general direction I think.

A lot of postgrad courses at Oxford are much easier to get into than undergrad (though funding is an issue). Good luck to her.

I always encourage young people to go for Oxbridge, but to never be wedded to the idea of going there.

There are so many good applicants that some are bound to be disappointed. And indeed, some mistakes will be made as part of the application process.

Of course some young people are able to be more pragmatic than others. For example, my DS will probably apply, but he's so laid back about it all he's virtually horizontal. That's just his nature. If he tried and failed, he'd not worry.

Same with his applications for US colleges.

But he ahs friends who are already very invested in their applications to Oxbridge (and other highly competitive institutions). I fear that they are turning it into something that it's not.

As for post grad; far, far less competitive than at undergraduate level. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that , like most other universities, some PG courses are cash cows.