UCAS: Cambridge or Oxford?

[user1473771286]

DD is interested in studying economics at Cambridge. The predicted grade is AAA, not all A (due to a low A grade in one of the AS science subjects). Is this good enough for Cambridge? or is Oxford easier? She got straight A in GCSE. Any advice? Many thanks.

[Waitingforsherlock]

Thanks all. Not sure how I'm going to break this to him. He's already demoralised as was expecting another A* that he didn't get. School careers people have painted a different picture.

He didn't do an EPQ as he had a very large sporting commitment in lower 6th. Perhaps that is something he could do this year? I personally think he might be more suited to PPE but I expect that this is just as competitive.

I'm beginning to see that he's really disadvantaged without the FM. He would always want to specialise in the maths rather than the other two sciences but there doesn't seem to be a Nat Sciences course that doesn't require FM either.

On a more positive note he does have a long stint of really good work experience lined up and another potential one in the pipeline.

If only he could ring up the uni's he likes and tell them the grades he has and ask them which courses might take him.

[goodbyestranger]

Waitingforsherlock if he's applying again now why doesn't he have a shot at the TSA for PPE in November because a good score in that would go a long way, and it's not as though his grades are a problem if the tutors rate him at interview. Just a thought, but he would need to register for the test by October 15th - it sounds as though the school is still helping him so they can tell him all he needs to know on the admin side. Must be worth a shot!

[Waitingforsherlock]

Thanks for the suggestion goodbye, the trouble with EPQ and FM is the waiting until August bit. I will look into the TSA tests.

He didn't apply last year so this is all new to me- I didnt realise the complexities of it and the need for strategic thinking. A lot different from the many years ago when I did it.

[haybott]

It's obvious that a current applicant will face an uphill struggle in interview if s/he hasn't opted for Economics and that probably shouldn't be ignored.

But outstanding applicants can still get a place and should not be put off by not having chosen Economics in year 12 when they weren't sure what they wanted to do. By outstanding I mean highly likely to get straight A stars in 4-5 subjects including maths and FM, highly likely to do very well in STEP, very strong mathematically and across the board (i.e. essay, logical thinking, critical thinking skills). I.e. the type of candidate needmoresleep describes.

I did not apply for Economics as I thought I didn't have enough background. I was told recently by one of my colleagues that somebody with my profile (6 A levels, 4 in science, 2 in other subjects, top grades in A levels and STEP) would almost certainly get in provided they demonstrated interest for economics and gave good responses to admission test/tests in interview. Very high ability and maths skills would outweigh having Economics A level.

[bojorojo]

PPE is one of the hardest courses to get onto at Oxford - they publish their applicants vs successful applicants ratios. Again, the lack of an essay subject may be a problem, but, read what they recommend and look for similar courses elsewhere if he does not fit. It is difficult to see where his enthusiasm and commitment to Politics and Philosophy would come from wth his A levels. I would be a bit more realistic.

Econometrics can be studied from Y1 as an undergraduate degree at Bristol, which is why I suggested it. I know someone who is doing it. It might be worth looking at. This type of course would hardly be seen as a disadvantage when seeking employment and no need for an EPQ. As I said earlier, Bath say his subjects do not meet their entry criteria so no point in suggesting Bath for economics! However, what would be wrong with looking at Durham or Exeter? Hardly low tier universities with high employment rates.

[bojorojo]

haybott - does't waitingforsherlock's DS have 3 A levels in STEM subjects. Not 4 or 5. He is not you.

[goodbyestranger]

Yes haybott regardless of the kind of outstandingness in maths that you describe, an applicant can still get rejected if they don't give sufficiently good response at interview. Sorry if that's stating the obvious but exceptional maths is necessary but not quite sufficient.

[ErrolTheDragon]

If only he could ring up the uni's he likes and tell them the grades he has and ask them which courses might take him.

Can't he? He might find that if he emailed some admissions tutors he would get some helpful responses. (you can find the addresses on the internet quite easily - my DD contacted some for advice when one of the A levels she'd wanted to do wasnt available and she wasn't sure which other would be the better choice. Most of them replied - they're real human beings who probably rather like kids who want to do their subject showing a bit of nous.)

[goodbyestranger]

I'm puzzled about what haybott's profile has to do with it too bojo. People at Cambridge don't all have five A*s, that's bollocks and calculated to put loads of people off. The profile of applicants may change somewhat anyhow, with the new pre-tests.

[Needmoresleep]

Decisions are:

1. does he want to take a mathematical, humanities/management, or accountancy/finance orientated economics degree.
   

1. Does he want to go to a top five University or is he happy with a top 10/20. The competition for the top courses is high, but it fades away after that, and the A* in maths should help his application with the less competitve courses.
   

He only need to decide now if he wants to try Oxbridge, and as others have said his grades are not that competitive for what are really oversubscribed degrees. If not he has until January. His application WILL be considered equaly with those who applied earlier.

If he wants to do a maths orientated economics degree, he probably should suggest he is self studying for AS or A2FM. If the very compettive courses don't offer him a place, he has a fair chance of being offered an unconditional place elsewhere, so can drop it. He may be in luck with Cambridge this year as if he aces the new aptitude test, they may not worry as much that he has not yet taken his FM. The bigger problem is that UCL/LSE/Warwick will select using grades and PS rather than interview. If he applies to Oxbridge the PS needs to go in soon. If he applies elsewhere he has more time to read round the subject and submit something stronger.

I would be tempted to forget Oxbridge and do a lot more thinking. Any FM study will not be wasted as it will help when he starts, as will experience of self-studying. Equally, broader reading and a chance to consider what type of degree he wants to take, will be invaluable. Then write a fab PS and a mix of aspirational, achieveable and fall-back choices, and submit it before the early January deadline.

[haybott]

OP's son does not meet the typical profile to get an Economics offer at Cambridge for several reasons, all discussed above. But it is just too strong to imply that without Economics A level you won't get an offer - this is my point.

Anyone can be rejected at Oxbridge interview, even if they have a perfect subject profile and very strong grades. Again, best to talk to admissions tutors on open days to get a sense of whether it is realistic or not for you to get an offer.

[haybott]

People at Cambridge don't all have five As, that's bollocks and calculated to put loads of people off*

But people with five A stars are considerably more likely to be very strong candidates for whatever subject they apply to at Cambridge.

Had enough of this thread now. Will bow out and leave it to those who don't work in universities.

[Needmoresleep]

bojo, my point was not that you can't study econometrics from year 1, but that I don't think it is a good strategy, particularly if the aim is find a slightly easier route into economics. DS had never seen himself as a mathematician and so has been surprised at how much he has enjoyed the econometrics type courses he took during his first two years, but equally others have not. Less than 5% of his year group, and this is at a University which requires very strong maths to get a place, will opt to switch to econometrics.

Better to do the degree you want to do, even if at somewhere less prestigeous. Death by statistics is not a good way to spend three years.

[Waitingforsherlock]

He chose those A Levels mainly because he thought that they would be well regarded and respected and that they fitted well together. Maths, English and Latin were really his thing up until A Level but I suppose he thought that the STEM subjects would be a better combination perhaps. I'm not sure how many pupils at his school would have taken Maths and English together which is perhaps why he didn't.

I think that this whole process will be tough for him, certainly in terms of slecting courses that are likely to take him.

I've looked at the TSA website and am wondering if the Test of Maths for Uni Admission would be something for him to consider too? Do uni's other than UCL and Oxbrige look at them too?

Going to Durham open day next week.

I just didn't realise how competitive it all is even with A grades.

[Waitingforsherlock]

Thread has moved on whilst typing my post. Thanks all for the helpful suggestions. Personal statement is obviously going to really important, ( another can of worms...) so lots of reading around the subject required.

He was always apitrational about Oxbridge but after some tough MH issues through AS and A Levels he feels that they may not be the right place for him, ( these were unrelated to studying but I think he feels vulnerable to stress). So he has got some time to play with yet.

[Bobochic]

WaitingforSherlock - my DSS1 graduated from Bristol this summer in Economics and Econometrics. He started out on a straight Economics degree but switched to Economics and Econometrics after the end of his second year. I should add that this was pure vanity on his part as he could have taken exactly the same course and options within an Economics degree.

DSS1 got offers from all the Masters courses he applied to and got a great internship and job offer this summer so his degree is clearly marketable currency. Your DS might look at Bristol and feel less despondent!

[bojorojo]

goodbye - she said she has 6 A Levels and what she could do with them. It seemed off the point when we are talking about someone with 3. That was all but I may have misunderstood. I did not suggest anyone should have 4 or 5 A levels.

I guess Bristol would not offer Econometrics if no-one wanted it. Econometrics is an easier route for some if they have the right A levels for that but not Economics. There is Economics in it of course, so looking at the course content would show it is not statistics for 3 years. Also, statistics drive a lot of decisions in business so some people like this field and are very well paid too. Horses for courses.

I think, waitingforsherlock, it is not the A grades that are the problem, it is the subjects they are in for an Economics course. However, there are opportunities if he just does the homework on which university is OK with his subjects. Simples!!!

(haybott's huffed off again!) I never understand on threads like this why Mum's wth some experience cannot have a chat. We do not claim to be experts and are not posting as such. I think it is a shame when people play the trump card of being an expert that then makes other people feel their opinions are valueless and worthless. I am frequently wrong, (I try very hard not to be) and I accept that, but I think I have a right to express an opinion, even though I am under-educated and probably very stupid. Isn't having an opinion allowed anymore? Also I try to learn from others and often posters have interesting and valuable opinions because of their experience, and I am not talking about me.

[Waitingforsherlock]

Thanks bobo, that's a good, positive outcome. Thanks for telling me that.

[irregularegular]

Oxford Economics tutor here.

Without wanting to get involved in detailed discussions at this point, there is absolutely no reason why WaitingforSherlock's son should not apply to either EM or PPE at Oxford and have a good chance of getting in. An awful lot of weight goes on the TSA in getting an interview, and on performance in the interview afterwards. The interview will not test subject specific knowledge. Relatively little weight is put on the personal statement (I don't think I have ever had a case for PPE where it has been the critical factor one way or another).

What is important is whether he has a genuine interest in Politics, Philosophy or Management, as well as Economics and would enjoy reading and writing essays on those subjects. Not because of how he will perform in the interview (which tends to test analytical skills more than motivation) but for his own sake afterwards!

[bojorojo]

irregularegular. Can you tell us how many undergraduates on PPE have the profile of waitingforsherlock's DS? Also, what proportion of candidates get interviewed and how many candidates actually get accepted for PPE? I would like to know what "a good chance of getting in" looks like, please.

[goodbyestranger]

bojo sometimes people need bigger boots. I value MN for its varied opinions, not for any particular one, however important the poster professes to be.

[Needmoresleep]

I'm not surprised that Haybott has huffed off.

I am not sure whether the experience some believe they have, is as strong and as universal as it might be.

Whether econometrics is statistics or not - or maybe even stochastics, is a bit of an arcane debate. The main point it that it requires a real interest in some quite specialised applied maths. Anyone who opts for a maths heavy degree simply because it is an "easier route" is taking a big risk. A guess (haybott would know!) but I suspect drop out/transfer/failure rates for maths type degrees are as high as, if not higher, than for most other subjects. Its not just ability, but that you need a certain sort of character and determination to work for hours to master the technical stuff.

[bojorojo]

Great posts you two!

[Needmoresleep]

Errr...I was not referring to haybott when questioning posters experience.

I really value haybott's knowledgeable input. Indeed am grateful for it when DS was struggling to gain a University offer 30 months ago, in part because we simply had not understood how competitive some courses are.

In that context I would question Irregular's suggestion that any particular applicant has a " good chance of getting in" to Oxford E&M. Simply because of the numbers who apply. Yes Oxford may not reply on PS', but other choices probably will. Sherlock's DS would then need to choose between having a go at the long-shot which is E&M, but losing the chance of polishing the PS.

(Based simply on knowing good candidates who did not get places.)

[irregularegular]

This is public information on the PPE admissions webpage

COURSE STATISTICS FOR 2015 ENTRY

Interviewed: 41%
Successful: 14%
Intake: 237

And for Economics and Management

COURSE STATISTICS FOR 2015 ENTRY

Interviewed: 25%
Successful: 8%
Intake: 87

This makes it look as if EM is much more competitive than PPE but I think that is misleading. I think the average quality of PPE applicants is higher, so the quality of the borderline accepted candidate is very similar.

Not sure what exactly you mean by "the profile of waitingforsherlocks DS"