UCAS: Cambridge or Oxford?

[user1473771286]

DD is interested in studying economics at Cambridge. The predicted grade is AAA, not all A (due to a low A grade in one of the AS science subjects). Is this good enough for Cambridge? or is Oxford easier? She got straight A in GCSE. Any advice? Many thanks.

[goodbyestranger]

OP asked about Economics at Cambridge and Oxford only Bobo, that's what I meant, she didn't ask about anywhere else.

[Bobochic]

Fine, but you apply to Oxford or Cambridge you apply to four other universities at the same time and the conversation on this thread reflects that.

The fact remains that Economics A-level (or equivalent) is not a prerequisite for an Economics degree. Indeed, many would consider it a pity to do Economics A-level before an Economics degree when they could have done something more mind/skills broadening Insead.

[goodbyestranger]

That's fine Bobo but the OP seems set on Cambridge and failing that Oxford and if the DD is taking two sciences which don't include maths, plus maths, but not FM or Economics then the odds might be stacked against her for Cambridge and that's what the question was. As I say, Oxford generally seems to be more flexible than Cambridge but since you can't read Economics as a single subject there and the deadline is only four weeks away, she might have difficulty constructing a convincing personal statement for any of the joint programmes which include economics, such as PPE, Econ and Management, History and Economics etc.

[Bobochic]

Four weeks is absolutely plenty for writing a PPE or Economics PS. However, preparing for interview in December will require quite a bit of reading.

[Needmoresleep]

Bobo, you may be a bit out of date. A level Economics used not to be required. However LSE specifically, and from the sounds of it, Cambridge, seem to have reviewed their requirements in the light of the A level reform.

LSE are saying 'The new syllabi beginning in 2015 for A level Economics, offered by various boards in consultation with university departments, can be particularly recommended as valuable.' and suggest over 90% of students entering have A level economics or similar.

[haybott]

The colleges I know at Cambridge do not insist on Economics A level but do want applicants to demonstrate very strong interest/potential for economics. Significant numbers of offers are made to people without Economics A level.

I agree that it's best to check explicitly with the colleges you are considering applying to though - presumably the pp's friend was with different colleges than the ones I know.

[goodbyestranger]

Which colleges are you talking about then haybott? Because that would probably help the OP without compromising you, whereas clearly I can't name the single college I'm talking about.

[goodbyestranger]

Bobo of course four weeks is plenty for writing a personal statement however my point is that it's probably not enough to acquire a passion for politics and philosophy and to be able to then convey that access of passion in a personal statement convincingly.

[goodbyestranger]

haybott since advice by the colleges is couched in terms of 'FM isn't essential but just so that you know, on average 90% of offerees have FM to A2' or whatever, it would be really helpful if you could quantify what you mean when you say 'significant numbers' of offerees don't have Economics to A2.. If you were to express it as an average percentage across the colleges you know, what would that percentage be?

[whereonthestair]

DH is an economics tutor at a Cambridge College. His preferred candidate has maths, further maths but not necessarily economics. He does consider UMS scores, but doesn't' get the info anymore. He will look at GCSEs, as well as predicted grades, but interviews based on relative performance to other candidates, and still interviews the majority of applicants. He ideally wants mathematicians who don't want to do maths and who can write an essay. The maths is what is crucial though.

[goodbyestranger]

It seems that applicants really do need to have done their homework on what individual colleges actually want then whereonthestair.

[Waitingforsherlock]

Hijacking slightly but any advice welcome please. DC has A*AA, ( Maths, Biology, Chemistry) and is having a gap year and starting to think about applying. Would these subjects/ grades be suitable for economics? I've looked at so many courses online recently and my head is swimming with course requirements etc. DC got over 90% on all the maths papers, I mention this as I have seen this on some of the requirement pages for various uni's. Thanks in advance.

[bojorojo]

Waitingforsherlock. May I refer you to whereontgestair's post whose DH is an economics tutor. He says "a mathematician who can write essays" is the ideal economist. Your DC does not have an essay subject, eg History, so you need to find a course that does not recommend applicants have Economics or History, or an essay subject such as Politics. This will be the challenge as his subjects are all STEM.

[bojorojo]

A quick look at Economics degrees , these A levels would be suitable for Bristol, Exeter and Durham but not Bath or Manchester. However, there are other courses such as Econometrics or Economics and Management which may also be flexible and appealing. Some universities list preferred subjects and say an applicant needs two of them. You just have to do the legwork and trawl through.

[Waitingforsherlock]

Thanks borojo, I am worrying a bit as he has done all STEM subjects. He has a full hand of A* at GCSE and an A at AS in Latin so I hope that this will have some relevance. He picked STEM as he wasn't sure what he wanted to do at uni level, hence the gap year too. He loved English but felt that it was a sensible idea to do all STEM in case he decided to do something medicine based and his English teacher put him off the subject unfortunately as their seemed to be a clash of personality between them

[Waitingforsherlock]

Sorry bojorojo, spelt your name wrong. Thanks again, I've had a trawl through too. I think he needs to contact the admissions tutors and have a chat with them. I'm wondering if having a go at Further Maths this year might be an option, although that kind of negates the idea of having a gap between studying doesn't it? Thanks again.

[Waitingforsherlock]

I cannot spell apparently and do not know the there, their or they're rule either. . I put it down to tiredness.

[Needmoresleep]

FM can be done on line as Haybott suggests above.

Economics is a subject where University can really matter.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/01/top-graduates-missing-out-on-banking-jobs-for-lacking-polish

It depends what he wants to do. The mathematical courses (Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Warwick) probably offer the best preparation for research, but he would need to explain and evidence his recent enthusiasm for economics and ideally would offer FM. They are very oversubscribed. You would need to speak to admissions tutors.

Other courses vary and it is worth looking at course content in detail and comparing it with what he wants from a degree. Bath, say, has a year in industry and a good employment rating but many students will be taking additional finance options with half an eye on the job market. The CUG gives a reasonable since of how different Universities rank. Once you get away from the top ranked courses admissions tutors should be able to advise on the flexibility they can show, and are likely to be content with single maths.

[Needmoresleep]

I would be careful about following Bojo's suggestion of econometrics. It is the subject DS is likely to graduate in. LSE prefers to have third years transfer in rather than new students apply directly. Essentially because it is a subject that does not suit everyone. (Cue lots of teasing from DS' economist parents. Neither of us were good enough at maths, but also struggle to understand DS' enthusiasm for something so dry. Our theory is that he will do anything to avoid writing essays.)

[haybott]

DC has AAA, ( Maths, Biology, Chemistry) and is having a gap year and starting to think about applying. Would these subjects/ grades be suitable for economics?*

These grades are not sufficient for the very top Economics places named here (Cambridge, LSE, Warwick etc).

They would be OK for the next tier down - and the next tier down would be unlikely to be particularly fussy about subjects. In particular, they wouldn't have that high a fraction of applicants coming in with FM and the maths content is in any case lower.

BTW, from the data I know, it is possible to get offers at the top places with only STEM subjects. An EPQ would however be one way to demonstrate writing skills.

Agree with whereonthestair about what Cambridge Economics is looking for.

[goodbyestranger]

To be fair you're going to be up the creek at Oxford too haybott if you can't write essays!

Also, are you able to quantify the percentage of applicants getting offers without Economics at the colleges you know, even roughly? Only asking again because you didn't reply, and that sort of statement can be misleading unless clarified. if there are colleges you know who really don't mind then that clarity would also be useful. Whereonthestair also seems to have a family member as a tutor and although she says that he says that Economics isn't necessary, she doesn't say whether the overwhelming majority of current offerees have it or don't so that issue is left a little confusing for applicants. Obviously she can't name a college either, but you could.

[haybott]

Oxford was implicitly grouped with the top universities - I didn't say anything one way or the other about what Oxford would want (as I don't know the nuances of their admissions).

There is also a limit to how much detailed information I would give on MN.

I would reiterate the advice of actually discussing with colleges and admissions tutors their preferences. Many (most) successful UK applicants do have Maths, FM, Economics and at least one other A2. However a very strong academic profile with Maths, FM, 2 or 3 other A2 (including one essay subject), very high results in Maths, and an EPQ related to economics could be acceptable. Similarly very strong results in Maths, FM, 2 A2 plus Economics AS taken in year 13 could be acceptable.

Of course you would be asked why you didn't take Economics if it was offered at your school and your answer would be part of evaluating your interest and aptitude for the subject. You would also be asked why you didn't take FM if that was offered. If you don't have FM and Economics you could well have to be stronger than those who have both but this would also be considered in the context of what kind of school you come from.

[Needmoresleep]

Stranger, I don't think historic data will get you anywhere. The old A level was grim, but it appears the new one is better. Poor DS, who was always deeply interested in economics, had to be regularly reassured that university economics was far more interesting than the school subject. The LSE steer on whether to take the A level has become much stronger, and I assume Cambridge are likely to take the same approach. LSE say 90% have an A level economics or equivalent, so this proportion will presumably rise. The two Cambridge exceptions I am aware of, were both capable of achieving Cambridge maths places. The problem a candidate who is not offering economics will face is explaining why they did not take it, and proving their interest and understanding of the subject.

Oxford PPE is a very different degree, and takes a very different profile of applicant. From observation a mix like maths, history and an MFL would be as good as any.

[goodbyestranger]

Yes I know the new syllabus is very different and greatly improved Needmoresleep although haybott was throwing out worryingly nebulous directions, so I thought she might clarify, which she has now, to an extent! It's obvious that a current applicant will face an uphill struggle in interview if s/he hasn't opted for Economics and that probably shouldn't be ignored.

haybott the other poster who like me is repeating what a current tutor's view is said essentially the same as me (unsurprisingly!): very, very, very, very strong maths. In addition she said the ability to write an essay was critical and since OP's DD wants to go to either Ox or bridge I merely pointed out that the weekly essay requires a capacity for writing essays at Oxford too.

Yes Needmoresleep, if the OP's DD isn't thinking about PPE yet, with the deadline not far away, I doubt it's the right thing for her. There are the other joint options that Oxford offers too of course but she really will need to be genuinely interested in the other subject as well, or be an amazingly talented actress at interview!