Contextual offers - how do they work please?

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DD is just about to enter sixth form at our local school. She will be studying for A levels and hoping to be heading for university afterwards.

I have heard that some universities make slightly lower offers to students from some state schools.

Can anyone explain how contextual offers work and whether DD will need to apply for a contextual offer please?

(a) that is the feedback applicants receive from admissions when they request it

Well, again, these are EU applicants and thus sit in a different pile to UK applicants.

Admissions often have standard stock phrases to give feedback on rejections. It's possible that a candidate was rejected partly for being from the EU but admissions could not say this. Some London courses have approximate quotas for EU students - EU students pay UK fees (so don't bring the financial advantage of non-EU students) but taking too high a fraction of EU students deters home students so rules for EU students can be stricter. I agree with Titchy that other issues could include not being familiar enough with French Bac qualifications.

No, my business is predicated on the assumption that it is wise to give it your best chance and not take any risks, however slight. There are all sorts of potential pitfalls for the uninitiated that are easy to avoid (i.e. they are not complex).

What is true for EU applicants is also often true for applicants from UK schools with a record of sending few students to the better universities - a sum of details that it is worth knowing about and paying attention to.

The London universities are pretty familiar with the French bac and the IB. You are projecting you own unfamiliarity upon others. All the London universities come to France to recruit, both at individual schools and at fairs, and have done for a while. They also actively manage their alumni networks in France.

Bobo, I am not convinced PS's are that complicated. My guess is that they are often like job applications for an attractive job. Even if they are read they are normally first read and scored by someone relatively junior and perhaps within the admissions rather than departmental team. You need to work out what boxes should be ticked and make sure you tick them. Interestingly, at least for medical schools, interviewers have often not even seen the PS and once you are through to interview scoring starts afresh.

DD ended up writing her PS under pressure of a deadline whilst still recovering from a serious and scary illness, which made it a bit more "all hands on deck" than it should have been. But still not hard. We downloaded all the guidance available from Universities and UCAS, and bought a book applying to medical school which had a brilliant chapter on how to write a PS. The first draft was a check list of things she had done etc which might provide evidence med schools were looking for, to discuss with the school, and then a case of her writing something following available guidance closely. She then got further comments from the school, mainly in the form of questions or suggestions for expansion, and then a case of editing to fit in with the word count. DD is dyslexic and does not write well, but our assumption was that it was content that mattered. And that the statement read very much as if she had written it. (One of her equally able friends had a very slick PS which read as if a consultant had been involved, and did not do as well in the process.)

Bristol medicine was an odd one as their initial filter relied very heavily on PS and reference scores (only 20% weight given to academics and no aptitude test). DD probably got through because she had the content and made sure that content was in the statement, not because of how well her statement was written.

My advice to someone applying from a school with limited RG experience, including French schools, would be to locate as much guidance as you can, make sure you tick all the boxes and follow suggested formats, and then get sensible readers (whether inside or outside school) to comment, but not rewrite. It must remain your statement.

And start early. It is the sort of thing that needs thought, review and editing.

haybott hair maybe its just the way iam and my dd to an extent. But we haven't really invested much brain power or place much emphasis on a uni reputation wether it's going up or going down as a reason for choosing it or not. Reputation is so subjective, its a shame modern society place so much emphasis on it as a means of wether your better than your competitors or not. Talking up talking down can create artificial ones hence I dont take much notice of it. Sometimes your seen as popular the " in" place to be at. And at other times your not . It's a cycle. Unless your in the top 6 of uni royalty. Everybody else is subject to change. I guess that's where your coming from, maintaining that position or try and go up. And understanding why ones falling.

Ages ago I was enquiring on MN for dd who in life in her couldn't make up her mind where she wanted to go?? At the time it was something like bath, Exeter and bristol. She would have been happy with whichever but she had to pick. Reputation wether it was falling or the uni had gone up or down a few places was trivial. As long it was a good solid uni, interesting research being done in her dept, modules offered was the area she has interested in. She's happy. To be honest she didn't even care where she lived. She just wanted to learn and grow in her chosen field from the experts. She finished her first year and she feels really privalliged to have been taught by some very good professors in her subject area who have done tremendous works and contributions in their field of expertise. To her that in itself priceless. DD is easily humbled.

hair yes sorry I've realised a oxbridge reject can still attend a uni that is A*AA. Given if both uni have same grade requiremnets. For some dumb reason I thought you could only be classed as a Oxford reject if one had a offer but didn't make the grade so have to to go to insurance. This thread has moved on so fast. Everything I'm saying isn't current to it and is rather irrelevant. Ignore me and carry on the interesting topic on French applicants

Coffee, I think you are right. I guess my interest stems from DD's realisation that she does not really know of anyone who is going. A generation ago her school would have been sending trainloads.

She is really looking forward to it. She did not go to an open day so her first visit was for interview and she absolutely loved Bristol. Her view is that unless you want to be a top flight academic doctor you really dont need to go to Oxbridge/London and that developing a broader life will help with both patient and coping skills. And that, and this is with the experience of London private schools behind her, that it can be better to be in the top third rather than in the bottom third of somewhere more academic/prestigious.

Interesting that some Universities may have a quota on some EU students. A Chinese friend of DS' claimed that French was easily the second most overheard language at the LSE after Chinese. My understanding is that the French have a different view of what teritiary education is about and so tend to prioritise enhancing individual career opportunities rather than get involved in wider University life. I assume London Universities are concerned to retain a British flavour, even if not enough British students can afford to live in the Capital.

Thank you for the tip GetAHaircutCarl. It will be a good idea to check what the school is planning to send in before it goes off. The school has a reasonable amount of experience of students going to the local university but this is very much the local college made good rather than RG.

DD will be aiming for a STEM subject.

Reputation is so subjective, its a shame modern society place so much emphasis on it as a means of wether your better than your competitors or not
Coffeewith1sugar my comment about Bristol's academic reputation was based on how it is perceived by academics as a research environment in my general field. I had n't before read hay's previous post on this but it echoes what I have heard about poor management and support services for researchers. That is a different to the reputation of how employers perceive Bristol degrees. I completely agree with you that is subjective so difficult to second guess for the future and I think TBH likely to play only a minor part for job selection.
In addition will be the reputation filtered through present and recent past students for teaching and general undergraduate experience. I certainly don't think many students would regret 3 years living in Bristol and if your DD is enjoying her course then that is positive feedback for at least one subject just as Bobochic gave for her DSS's experience.

It is funny about Bristol. Yes, back in the 80s it was seen as no. 2, really. But, even then, I do remember we were advised against applying because (apparently) they had a downer on grammar school applicants. Those were the days when offers were all over the place so you didn't want to get a nasty offer when somewhere else would offer you 2EEs.

Dn has just finished at Bristol. One thing she did mention was that there had been official complaints on her course (very competitive) about the very high number of foreign students(to be frank, Chinese), many of whom had very poor English. She said they did not participate in seminars etc and she was even sceptical about whether they were producing their own essays.

Between foreign students who are buying a place and people arriving with unfair contextual offers, I don't think Bristol sounds a contender for ds.

RhodaBull - I read through the list of students graduating with my DSS1 from Bristol (School of Economics, Finance and Management) a couple of weeks ago. The lists are separated into Firsts, other Honours and Pass degrees. The Chinese students aren't the ones getting Firsts.

There have always been a lot of Chinese students at Bristol, however - they were from Hong Kong and Singapore when I was at Bristol in the 1980s.

Of course no one has any objection to Chinese students per se, it's just the fact that they might be entering in larger numbers than are deserved by dint of paying £££, and, as you point out Bobochic, they aren't getting the Firsts. Higher Ed has gone awry somewhere. An institution won't fail very obvious failures if it is going to result in biting the hand that feeds - ie putting off further high-paying students.

Actually ds's friend was put off Imperial by the number of Chinese students. He imagined he might be consorting with world-wide students, but said that looking at the names on the doors of the hall of residence, he couldn't see a single one that was not Asian.

need its so endearing to hear about your DD the reasons on why she is making the uni choice she is. She sounds like she knows exactly what she is doing and why she's doing it. I think the younger generation aren't as hung up as older generation about having to go to the very top top uni if thay have exemplar grades. I think they know that it takes a special extra something else factor. Let's face it there's hell of a lot more people achieving A*AA than 20-30 years ago. And so now alot more uni's requiring it and by that account automatically standards or whether perceived standards are raised. Lots more extra Oxbridge reject uni to choose from
Sends DD has been working with a professor who has been getting academics from all different types of uni, who are enthusiastic about their research and interest to talk, debate get it out there the wonderful work they are doing. Shes has found many amazing researcher/professor's even from lesser known unis to the very top ones. She really appreciates what you guys do for a living.

Rhonda don't the international students have to do a English proficiency test or something and get a certain score before they get a place. If they achieve the marks they can't really turn them away because of their ethnicity that's discrimination. Having a quota on certain ethnicity is bit backwards thinking not outward looking don't you think. And not going to Imperial because there's too many Chinese is rather a bit immature and tad racist. Asian names or looks don't mean they are chinese. Could be South Korean, Japanese, Malaysian, Vietnamese etc.

Yes, I know it sounds racist, but realistically reports from students are that Asian students have little interest in socialising or taking part in activities - and, understandably, prefer to hang out with each other. There was a thread a year or two ago where a MNetter's dd was unhappy at a London university because she was marooned in a flat with students who didn't want to fraternise.

I'm sure it's well on it's way to changing, but at the moment UK students still expect a rounded experience of university.

I flat shared with a student of HK descent and knew lots of friendly Asian students when I was at Bristol. TBH they were often more worldly than the provincial Brits, and better company for it!

All non-native English speakers need to do English proficiency tests both to get a place and to be eligible for a tier 4 visa (if non EU).

As an external examiner at a number of strong universities, I would say that I see plenty of firsts from Asian students and very few Thirds/fails. Plenty of firsts from other groups such as Eastern European students too. And plenty of fails amongst British male students. (I can filter results by country of origin, gender, fee status etc.)

Of course no one has any objection to Chinese students per se, it's just the fact that they might be entering in larger numbers than are deserved by dint of paying £££.

Top universities do NOT drop their standards for international students. Bear in mind that many courses are only viable at all because of international students. Very few STEM Masters courses would run without them, and international students fess fund UK students bursaries on such courses. Without such bursaries few UK students could take Masters (even with the new loans) as there is insufficient UK funding for taught graduate courses.

DS studies with a lot of Chinese and does not find a problem socialising with them. But they are a diverse group, some British born, others British educated, some third country nationals, whilst others are from HK or China. (And probably some identified as "chinese" are from Korea or Japan.)

Some are very bright, almost all are hard working. If Chinese students as a group are underperforming I would suspect it may be more a problem with a University admissions department. Different educational systems will provide students with different strengths and weaknesses. Hard working students can obtain good A level results without being particuarly talented. But Universities have other ways of sifting the talented from those who may start to struggle at the next level, and presumably lots of historic data on student achievement to help them.

I think that being able to study with students from elsewhere with different cultural perspectives is a great advantage. It means that the University experience will be different, as there will probably not be as much take up for freshers stuff, pub crawls and the like, but some British students will see this as a positive. London Universtities in particular offer an international educational experience almost like nowhere else in the world. It was not for DD who wants a broader University experience but perfect for DS whose main interest is his subject.

What university does not have large numbers of foreign students? My DD has just completed a post grad course where, typically, 50% fail and there is supposed to be a standard of English test prior to being accepted onto the course. She found some overseas students were really struggling with the volume of reading and writing required so the filter was not set high enough. Likewise DD2 has just finished at a London University and the same problem manifested itself. You just have to get on with your own studies but it can be a problem in group working.

If any student is taught by a shed load of professors, they are very lucky! My DD1 hardly saw a hair of one in 4 years. When she did they were lacklustre so other younger lecturers were preferred!

DD has friends who did medicine at Bristol. All were happy. It is a great place to be. DD shared a room with a first year Chinese vet. She skyped all night and never joined in with anything at all in the hall. She preferred the Chinese society. Everyone is different and that includes the Chinese. DD has several Chinese friends from school who are still friends many years on but DD2 has Chinese friends from university whose visas have now expired and have gone home making the friendships somewhat short term. I think if you feel like an endangered species at university, it may not be the place for you.

What university does not have large numbers of foreign students?

Outside London and top 20 universities it would be unusual to have more than 15% or so foreign undergraduate students, although the numbers typically vary between subjects.

My DD has just completed a post grad course where, typically, 50% fail.

Then the course is a cash cow, taking pretty much anyone that can pay. That's a ridiculous failure rate for any group on a post-graduate course. There is not one single post-graduate course in the country in my subject that has a failure rate of more than 10 or 20% for any group of students.

Look at the failure rates for BPTC then, haybott. I agree it is a cash cow. No pupillage for the vast majority who pass either, and the fees of nearly £20,000 in London do not seem to put people off either. There is supposed to be pre testing for the BPTC but everyone knows nearly everyone passes it. The provideers take people with a 2:2 who almost certainly will not get pupillage. The only provider that had stringent entry qualifications dedided to no longer provide the course as they could not make money from it.

When my DH did his MIStructE exams, typically only 30% passed in those days! Some institutions just do not want the "also rans".

bojo is correct haybott, both the fees and the failure rates are massive. For those with talent there are sizeable scholarships available: my DD was awarded a total of around £23k (and has just achieved an 'Outstanding' I'm delighted to say). So it's not impossible to fund the course if a student shows sufficient promise, but the fees themselves do seem outrageous.

And so is the quality of teaching at times, goodbyestranger! Well done to your DD.

I have just done a quick look at overseas students at a few of our most respected universities. Some have the numbers clearly displayed in "facts and figures". Durham: 21%, Exeter: 19%, Warwick: 33%, Edinburgh: 42%. These are all students, not just undergrads, and appear to include EU. For example: Edinburgh has 35,582 students of whom 14,800 are overseas, including EU. Hope my maths is correct above!