A Level Choices

[youngatheart1]

DS is in Year 11 and we recently attended a 6th form evening to start to prepare for A levels choices. DS wants to go into law and had virtually made his choices English Lit, History, Physics and either Spanish or German, but after a discussion with one of his teachers he has been told that unless he wants to study medicine and do 2 sciences, his science choice is a waste and he would be better doing both languages, he is top of the year in both, this seems a great idea to me as he really gets languages, he is 2nd in year in Latin and to my mind languages would help him work anywhere in the world. Am I right, are his choices good ones, will they get him into say Cambridge or Oxford, he is predicted 11A* at GCSE (not being a show off just how it is, not sure where he gets his talent from) his tutors believe he will have no problems continuing all 4 subjects as he has already started German AS level. I have tried to look up the best choices for Law and all suggest English and History but nothing else. Any guidance appreciated.

I have tried to look up the best choices for Law and all suggest English and History but nothing else.

I had a quick look at the UCAS course search. The places I looked at didn't specify subjects, just said what they didn't want (gen studies, critical thinking, vocational A Levels).
I would say English or History would be good, not sure you need both.
There are a lot of joint law-with-language degrees, if he's interested.

Physics without maths is a bad choice: there are (for practical purposes) no courses that want physics that don't also want maths, and doing A Level physics with only GCSE maths is hard work and unlikely to result in a top grade. There are exceptions, etc, etc, but on average outcomes from doing physics in isolation are not great. Doing maths instead would be a stronger, and easier, option.

English, History, a foreign language is pretty much the ne plus ultra of humanity degree entry qualifications.

You realise that (a) you don't need to do a law degree to go into law and that (b) Oxbridge law degrees are extremely academic? A lot of people would advise bright candidates to do History/English/whatever at Oxbridge and then do post-grad law. Certainly if he's interested in becoming a barrister, rather than a solicitor, current thinking is to not do undergraduate law.

thanks for your replies, hi duh this is our first time dealing with uni and as he does seem keen on being a barrister rather than a solicitor just wondered about the reasons for not doing undergraduate law and would say a history degree be better which is his favourite subject.
hi seuna What he has seen is a 4 year course with one year spent abroad hence the language side of things but he is torn between Spanish and german, but spanish probably as he has this dream of going to America one day. The youngsters of today sure think big.

Barristers today are much more likely to have a top class degree in something else and then to train as a barrister. You'll need to ask a barrister why that is. My daughter did a work experience at major London chambers, and the universal advice was to do anything other than a law degree.

For Oxbridge these days you need at least 2A* at A level and agree with the previous poster that you are very unlikely to obtain top grades in Physics (or Chemistry) without Maths A level.
The reason they suggest English and History is that Law is mostly an essay based subject.
Previous poster is correct that Oxbridge law degrees are very academic. Degrees at other unis may give more practical experience e.g. practice court rooms etc.
If your ds is considering working abroad, you need to consider that UK law professional qualifications may not be accepted. The UK has separate training for solicitors and barristers whereas in other countries lawyers may be expected to do both roles.

"For Oxbridge these days you need at least 2A* at A level"

The standard Oxford humanities offer this summer was AAA, even for high demand courses:

That's also what the 2015 Oxford prospectus says for Law :) It also gives NO essential or recommended or even helpful A level subjects choices, so there you go.

fwiw (i.e. not very much!) the only barrister I know has a Law degree from Oxford

I would second doing the two languages. It gives more options at undergrad level (German or French with History or Law for example). The current split is about 50% of barristers have an undergrad law degree but there are strong reasons to do a language , or even two, because it gives you additional skills. You should go to the best university you can and choose the course you will do best in because Barristers are fickle about who they employ. Some Chambers are more or less Oxbridge only! However, the majority are not but the Bar Council only visited 4 universities on the Milk Round last year - Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol and I forget the other!!! I can find out from DD if you want. If your DS does a non law degree, then it is important to do work experience in a legal setting prior to finishing the first degree. Mini pupilages are also brilliant if you can get them. These can show a young person what branch of law they might be interested in. Many Barristers do not offer work experience to school children and most young people that get a chance of this have a family member or school contact that helps.

Hi, (As a sixth form tutor) I would recommend only physics WITH maths if wanted, but Eng/Hist/languages sounds a solid choice. Be aware history at Oxbridge will need an extra exam (history aptitude test - HAT) which your school will need to prepare students for and is in November. I also agree law career is often better for eng/hist degree and then law conversion. Hope that helps.

Be aware history at Oxbridge will need an extra exam (history aptitude test - HAT)

only required by Oxford not Cambridge

And the aptitude tests are taken pre-interview, so if you do badly in them you dimply move on to other universities and other offers. You won't lose an offered place, you just won't get an offer. The exception is STEP, but that's not relevant here.

If your son likes physics & is good at it, don't dismiss it. my sister good into Oxford for an arts subject many years ago. she and ALL the others in her college on the same course had done Maths A-level. The tutors liked it as evidence of logical thinking. Plus an unusual combination of subjects can make you stand out at Oxbridge entrance.

Also, Law is one of the most competitive Oxbridge courses to get in to. English or History plus a conversion course is a bit easier and better grounding for being a barrister.

An outreach person from one of the Cambridge colleges gave a talk at my DCs school about A level choices and they said that for sciences you need to have chosen science and maths A levels but for Arts courses a mixed profile of Arts/Maths/Science was a good choice.

"If your son likes physics & is good at it, don't dismiss it. my sister good into Oxford for an arts subject many years ago. she and ALL the others in her college on the same course had done Maths A-level."

I think you're making the opposite point to the one you think you are. Doing maths amongst otherwise humanities A Levels is increasingly popular, increasingly well respected and perfectly sensible: maths stands alone, you don't need to do a science to support it either in its own terms or to get the value from it.

The point about physics is that being good at it at GCSE isn't enough: to do it at A Level with only GCSE maths is really, really hard. It was hard in the 1970s and 1980s, when O Level maths had differential and integral calculus in it, and it's a lot harder now when there is no calculus and no mechanics in GCSE maths. Physics as an A Level, without maths to support it, is (a) hard to do well in and (b) of limited value anyway. Someone who's doing humanities but wants to do a mathematical subject should do A Level maths. It's that simple.

Oxbridge is going to be making it's entry requirements harder in future see link to the following article [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11152661/Toughening-up-of-entry-requirements-for-Oxbridge.html].
This may not affect pupils applying now, but will be important for those who have't started A level courses yet.

Oxbridge is going to be making it's entry requirements harder in future see link to the following article ]www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11152661/Toughening-up-of-entry-requirements-for-Oxbridge.html.
This may not affect pupils applying now, but will be important for those who have't started A level courses yet.

The article says that the changes are for those applying this year.

Hi all many thanks for your replies, they have been really helpful. We will look at the links you have provided and make sure he understands what he needs to do to get into the uni he wants. His school has started a law society this week and are having people in to do some talks etc at least now with your help he knows what questions to ask.

the only barrister I know has a Law degree from Cambridge and says - do some other subject than Law (hers was Law) and then do the conversion

DH is a lawyer now working for an investment bank. He has quite a few barrister friends one of whom is involved in recruitment to chambers. She says they have so many applicants that the applicant needs something that stands out. She looks far more favourably on candidates who have done another degree followed by a conversion rather than a law degree. She has said her interest is piqued by degrees such as biology, religious studies, philosophy and she once mentioned zoology!!! Obviously these in addition to the English and history grads who make up her 'bulk'. Obviously these degrees need to be (for her at least) either Oxbridge or RG and backed by excellent grades.

Interestingly, she always sighs and says that state schools especially those who don't produce many A*/A students encourage bright candidates to apply for law rather than consider, say, history followed by pg law something the private schools gave cottoned onto quicker. I know she would like to see this route given more consideration, certainly for The Bar. I'm not sure if the same advice applies for a student interested in becoming a solicitor.

Hi Nancy, sorry to be thick but was is pg law, DS is privately educated so perhaps the history then law thing will be discussed when we have career talks, as yet these have not taken place we have just had a 6th form options evening, so I am probably getting ahead of myself a bit but will certainly mention it if they do not. History does seem to be good choice and one DS would be happy taking at degree level. For me, I do not really understand the conversion bit, to my mind 3 years law must be better than say 2 years chemistry and 1 year law, this is what I cannot get my head around. Thanks again your reply has been very helpful.

According to the Oxford U careers website 42% of (barristers') pupils in 2010/11 had non law first degrees. The conversion course for non-law graduates takes one academic year (followed by the vocational course which takes another year).

Op - do you mind if I hijack thread?

I know the advice for maths is to get an A* in GCSE before even considering a level, but does that hold true for other subjects?

I am by no means old, but my knowledge of this seems pretty out of date.

At dc's school you had to have at least a B at gcse in the subject to be considered for A level but maths, statistics and MFL, all had a minimum requirement of A at gcse

Sorry, pg=post grad. So (I think, DH not here to check) one year conversion course then another of usually on site exams. The format may have changed slightly as I only remember from DH 20yrs ago. He'd know the changes but he's not here to ask, sorry.

So basically your DS would simply apply for history and complete a history degree alongside everyone else, many of whom have no intention of doing law. Then after the 3 or 4 yrs depending upon where he goes, he will go on to law school for his 1yr law conversion.

As you can see from the stats given by Lilymaid, 42% at Oxford and the All About Law website also states it is close to half.

I'm not sure why it seems to be the preference these days. I don't think it was the case when DH qualified although there was definitely lots of students who entered that way. I just think it's possibly to do with there now being so many law courses around the country, many of which are looked down on by those reviewing CVs. Your son should really explore both options with his careers advisor but if he wants to be a barrister then it does look like degree plus conversion is the way to go.