A Level Choices

[youngatheart1]

DS is in Year 11 and we recently attended a 6th form evening to start to prepare for A levels choices. DS wants to go into law and had virtually made his choices English Lit, History, Physics and either Spanish or German, but after a discussion with one of his teachers he has been told that unless he wants to study medicine and do 2 sciences, his science choice is a waste and he would be better doing both languages, he is top of the year in both, this seems a great idea to me as he really gets languages, he is 2nd in year in Latin and to my mind languages would help him work anywhere in the world. Am I right, are his choices good ones, will they get him into say Cambridge or Oxford, he is predicted 11A* at GCSE (not being a show off just how it is, not sure where he gets his talent from) his tutors believe he will have no problems continuing all 4 subjects as he has already started German AS level. I have tried to look up the best choices for Law and all suggest English and History but nothing else. Any guidance appreciated.

[youngatheart1]

Thanks for the replies, beginning to understand now what we will be up against, DS is keen on the idea of the year abroad hence his language choices, his school is really great at getting the kids to be open and vocal and sometimes a little too opinionated, he has been in the debating society for the past couple of years and attended a debate at cambridge which he enjoyed and also attended a young lawyers course in the summer hols at london uni which cemented his choice of career path. We are keeping him grounded that Oxbridge may not suit him, his school does sort of push for these unis but he does understand there are other great ones out there.

[Pumpkin14]

Not sure if this has already been said here, but I think that a mix of humanities (essay-based) and science/analytical subjects is preferred for Law applications. It demonstrates a range of skills. A language is great for Law too, since many Law degrees (including Cambridge and Oxford) have year abroad options. This also gives the possibility of following it up with a specialisation in European Law. Also, doing Physics at AS/A level without Maths isn't a problem at all, if the student has a strong foundation in Mathematics and enjoys the subject. The lack of Maths at A-level will not hamper success in Physics in any way.

[notweeting]

DS did Maths, Physics, English &History. He had A* in all of them at GCSE. He found the maths the most time consuming almost to the detriment of his other subjects, so he dropped it. He went on to do law at imperial college.
He did try Oxford, but what they don't tell you at schools/colleges is that Oxford are not just seeking top grades, they want intuitive candidates who can think on the spot. There has to be a natural flair which a very small percentage of people have.

[antimatter]

Re: studying degree and becoming a lawyer
from what I have been reading most important are 2 issues - he gets to choose degree where he can get highest degree (aiming at FIrst)
and is able to write very well in English

there was a thread few months ago where one of mumsnetters was explaining about importance of being able to write flawlessly in English by future lawyers

[skylark2]

A levels are a lot harder than GCSEs.

But there's a big difference between a child who works like stink to get a GCSE B (who will probably struggle at A level) and a child who coasts, doesn't revise as much as they should, doesn't read the paper properly, and still gets a GCSE B (who will be fine provided they pull their socks up).

[NancyJones]

Sorry, pg=post grad. So (I think, DH not here to check) one year conversion course then another of usually on site exams. The format may have changed slightly as I only remember from DH 20yrs ago. He'd know the changes but he's not here to ask, sorry.

So basically your DS would simply apply for history and complete a history degree alongside everyone else, many of whom have no intention of doing law. Then after the 3 or 4 yrs depending upon where he goes, he will go on to law school for his 1yr law conversion.

As you can see from the stats given by Lilymaid, 42% at Oxford and the All About Law website also states it is close to half.

I'm not sure why it seems to be the preference these days. I don't think it was the case when DH qualified although there was definitely lots of students who entered that way. I just think it's possibly to do with there now being so many law courses around the country, many of which are looked down on by those reviewing CVs. Your son should really explore both options with his careers advisor but if he wants to be a barrister then it does look like degree plus conversion is the way to go.

[eatyourveg]

At dc's school you had to have at least a B at gcse in the subject to be considered for A level but maths, statistics and MFL, all had a minimum requirement of A at gcse

[VirtualPointyHat]

Op - do you mind if I hijack thread?

I know the advice for maths is to get an A* in GCSE before even considering a level, but does that hold true for other subjects?

I am by no means old, but my knowledge of this seems pretty out of date.

[Lilymaid]

According to the Oxford U careers website 42% of (barristers') pupils in 2010/11 had non law first degrees. The conversion course for non-law graduates takes one academic year (followed by the vocational course which takes another year).

[youngatheart1]

Hi Nancy, sorry to be thick but was is pg law, DS is privately educated so perhaps the history then law thing will be discussed when we have career talks, as yet these have not taken place we have just had a 6th form options evening, so I am probably getting ahead of myself a bit but will certainly mention it if they do not. History does seem to be good choice and one DS would be happy taking at degree level. For me, I do not really understand the conversion bit, to my mind 3 years law must be better than say 2 years chemistry and 1 year law, this is what I cannot get my head around. Thanks again your reply has been very helpful.

[NancyJones]

DH is a lawyer now working for an investment bank. He has quite a few barrister friends one of whom is involved in recruitment to chambers. She says they have so many applicants that the applicant needs something that stands out. She looks far more favourably on candidates who have done another degree followed by a conversion rather than a law degree. She has said her interest is piqued by degrees such as biology, religious studies, philosophy and she once mentioned zoology!!! Obviously these in addition to the English and history grads who make up her 'bulk'. Obviously these degrees need to be (for her at least) either Oxbridge or RG and backed by excellent grades.

Interestingly, she always sighs and says that state schools especially those who don't produce many A*/A students encourage bright candidates to apply for law rather than consider, say, history followed by pg law something the private schools gave cottoned onto quicker. I know she would like to see this route given more consideration, certainly for The Bar. I'm not sure if the same advice applies for a student interested in becoming a solicitor.

[antimatter]

the only barrister I know has a Law degree from Cambridge and says - do some other subject than Law (hers was Law) and then do the conversion

[youngatheart1]

Hi all many thanks for your replies, they have been really helpful. We will look at the links you have provided and make sure he understands what he needs to do to get into the uni he wants. His school has started a law society this week and are having people in to do some talks etc at least now with your help he knows what questions to ask.

[webwiz]

The article says that the changes are for those applying this year.

[catslife]

Oxbridge is going to be making it's entry requirements harder in future see link to the following article ]www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11152661/Toughening-up-of-entry-requirements-for-Oxbridge.html.
This may not affect pupils applying now, but will be important for those who have't started A level courses yet.

[catslife]

Oxbridge is going to be making it's entry requirements harder in future see link to the following article [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11152661/Toughening-up-of-entry-requirements-for-Oxbridge.html].
This may not affect pupils applying now, but will be important for those who have't started A level courses yet.

[duhgldiuhfdsli]

"If your son likes physics & is good at it, don't dismiss it. my sister good into Oxford for an arts subject many years ago. she and ALL the others in her college on the same course had done Maths A-level."

I think you're making the opposite point to the one you think you are. Doing maths amongst otherwise humanities A Levels is increasingly popular, increasingly well respected and perfectly sensible: maths stands alone, you don't need to do a science to support it either in its own terms or to get the value from it.

The point about physics is that being good at it at GCSE isn't enough: to do it at A Level with only GCSE maths is really, really hard. It was hard in the 1970s and 1980s, when O Level maths had differential and integral calculus in it, and it's a lot harder now when there is no calculus and no mechanics in GCSE maths. Physics as an A Level, without maths to support it, is (a) hard to do well in and (b) of limited value anyway. Someone who's doing humanities but wants to do a mathematical subject should do A Level maths. It's that simple.

[webwiz]

An outreach person from one of the Cambridge colleges gave a talk at my DCs school about A level choices and they said that for sciences you need to have chosen science and maths A levels but for Arts courses a mixed profile of Arts/Maths/Science was a good choice.

[Parietal]

If your son likes physics & is good at it, don't dismiss it. my sister good into Oxford for an arts subject many years ago. she and ALL the others in her college on the same course had done Maths A-level. The tutors liked it as evidence of logical thinking. Plus an unusual combination of subjects can make you stand out at Oxbridge entrance.

Also, Law is one of the most competitive Oxbridge courses to get in to. English or History plus a conversion course is a bit easier and better grounding for being a barrister.

[duhgldiuhfdsli]

And the aptitude tests are taken pre-interview, so if you do badly in them you dimply move on to other universities and other offers. You won't lose an offered place, you just won't get an offer. The exception is STEP, but that's not relevant here.

[boys3]

Be aware history at Oxbridge will need an extra exam (history aptitude test - HAT)

only required by Oxford not Cambridge

[HettyD]

Hi, (As a sixth form tutor) I would recommend only physics WITH maths if wanted, but Eng/Hist/languages sounds a solid choice. Be aware history at Oxbridge will need an extra exam (history aptitude test - HAT) which your school will need to prepare students for and is in November. I also agree law career is often better for eng/hist degree and then law conversion. Hope that helps.

[MillyMollyMama]

I would second doing the two languages. It gives more options at undergrad level (German or French with History or Law for example). The current split is about 50% of barristers have an undergrad law degree but there are strong reasons to do a language , or even two, because it gives you additional skills. You should go to the best university you can and choose the course you will do best in because Barristers are fickle about who they employ. Some Chambers are more or less Oxbridge only! However, the majority are not but the Bar Council only visited 4 universities on the Milk Round last year - Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol and I forget the other!!! I can find out from DD if you want. If your DS does a non law degree, then it is important to do work experience in a legal setting prior to finishing the first degree. Mini pupilages are also brilliant if you can get them. These can show a young person what branch of law they might be interested in. Many Barristers do not offer work experience to school children and most young people that get a chance of this have a family member or school contact that helps.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

That's also what the 2015 Oxford prospectus says for Law :) It also gives NO essential or recommended or even helpful A level subjects choices, so there you go.

fwiw (i.e. not very much!) the only barrister I know has a Law degree from Oxford

[duhgldiuhfdsli]

"For Oxbridge these days you need at least 2A* at A level"

The standard Oxford humanities offer this summer was AAA, even for high demand courses: