Oxbridge Entry 2015

[Roisin]

Do we have a thread already?
ds1 has decided to definitely apply to Oxford to do Biochemistry. He will probably apply to St John's.

My Oxford experience is somewhat ancient but I have been involved with universities since my Oxford days & a few things struck me about the article.

First it talked about parents contacting the tutor. I've had conversations with tutors at new universities about this - and it leaves them in a very difficult position. Students at university are adults, it's not really appropriate for them to be discussing their students with parents.

Secondly it talked about the pressure of finals. I can understand that - in ye olden days our O levels & A levels had been exactly the same - 2 years of work assessed over a few papers at the end of a course. We were used to it I always preferred that system - I found it a lot less stressful than continual assessment (which I have experienced since). I can see it might be a shock to others coming up through the system now though.

Eating disorders etc were fairly common - but as atia said that often seemed to come from within - and I believe research shows that high achieving girls are at additional risk of developing eating disorders. It's not something for the university to ignore but it probably best addresses via university counselling services, rather than individual tutors - that's true for any university.

I do think that having a certain amount of resilience helps with Oxford (& presumably Cambridge too). I had exams after two terms, then finals - that left a lot of unpressurised time helped by me not hugely hard on myself or massively ambitious - I came out with a perfectly respectable 2:1 without too much stress (found the whole thing relationship-men thing far more stressful than the work). I do think I wasted some of my time there - education is wasted on the young. Maybe things have changed, or maybe colleges differ but I has no pressure from my college at all - I wasn't even set collections unless I asked.

I do think if you go to Oxford (at least for most subjects) you do need to enjoy reading & writing. Ds2 would be a hopeless match because he loathes writing - if he ever expressed an interest I'd be horrified - even if he had suitable grades (unless he'd had a personality change in the meantime ). But ds3 who spends his life with a nose in a book & likes researching and putting together arguments? Yeah if he wanted to have a go why not - if he was up there with the grades.

Oh I hope I don't sound blasé about mental health issues etc. I just think they're complex & students are better served by specific support services rather than expecting individual tutors to provide that support.

I did try to get some support for a student at a new university a few years ago - and it was tough really - the tutor couldn't help (& wasn't particularly interested & wouldn't talk to me anyway) so it was really only available at university level. I'm not sure Oxbridge is any different in that regard.

So.... reading that article freaked me out somewhat. If I describe my dd2's strengths and weaknesses could those of you who have been to Oxford tell me whether she might cope or struggle? (with the obvious caveat that she might not even pass the test / get an interview).

Strengths - Likes reading and writing essays.

Naturally sociable / good communicator.
Very strong work ethic / self motivates / hyper organised.
Good at time keeping.
Responds well to challenge / failure.

Weaknesses - Gets stressed / moody / tired at exam time.
Prefers routine and lots of sleep.
Prefers continuous assessment.
Has to work hard to get good results (so couldn't have sailed through A levels without working).

(Ps - thanks for the good wishes....very kind )

Littleham, that article dates from 1997! A great deal has changed at all universities since then.

Re your daughter - her strengths sound like a good fit.

Weaknesses - thinking about my son (final year history student) - I'd say he is also working very hard. I have no idea if he is getting enough sleep! He seems to have worked out a routine for himself and that hasn't been a problem. I doubt your daughter would be alone in getting stressed/moody/tired at exam time.

Continuous assessment happens in a way at Oxford in that every single week there is an essay to submit and so you get feedback on your performance all the time. However, it doesn't in any way feed into the final degree class so there isn't that sense of methodically building up your marks as you go. That is something for your daughter to think very carefully about but from my past experience as a university administrator (seeing a lot of undergraduate transcripts when they applied for postgrad) lots of students have a lot to do in the final year to make sure of a good grade. It seems to be extremely common to get very mixed results in years 1 and 2 and then work like a demon in year 3, so perhaps not so very different from Oxford after all.

Other feedback: my son's college sets Collections every single term, as far as I can make out. Collections are exams set and marked by the college tutors and taken in exam conditions (I think). This may vary from college to college. Results are used for monitoring performance.

Littleham don't overthink it. Your DD sounds very grounded. The support at Oxford these days is extraordinarily good. The college system and weekly tutorials provide a far 'safer' environment than a university with less individual contact. Within a college there's a network of people watching out for students, not least the porters who are extremely quick to pick up on something that's wrong: how a student looks, mail not collected etc. They then pass that on up the line and it's not ignored. I've encountered a number of rustications where a student has needed a break and the colleges have been very, very supportive. That's not to say that students don't have problems and never get so depressed that they don't commit suicide. But it's very unproductive to get worried by a very old article a decade and a half out of date. It's certainly true that there are eating disorders around and a high incidence of depression, but that comes with the constituency rather than Oxford itself. Oxford as a whole is acutely aware of the need for student support and takes it incredibly seriously. Things move on.

Absolutely what Mimsy and Molio said.

Alreadytaken, DS college is at the top of the rankings and wants to stay there - thats the excuse for the policy - and I am aware of four more colleges with identical policies. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, just stating it as a fact that needs to be considered. Some thrive on the pressure, and some don't manage it as well, but dropouts are rare. The DCs at Durham would not have done well under that kind of pressure as first years.

I think tbh those who have had to work to get in may be in a better position. One of my best friends at college was incredibly bright - one of the brightest people I've ever met. He'd never had to work for exams in his life & didn't make it through his first year (he did literally, no work at all). He makes a living playing poker now (a good living I believe!). So nothing wrong with having to work to get in.

Yes agree that tutorials keep you on track - the marks don't matter as such but you soon learn it's hugely embarrassing to be unable to have anything sensible to say & so you do learn to do enough to not make a complete idiot of yourself. (Unless you're my friend above - but he was a nightmare!) That does mean that things aren't entirely new.

I think most tutors do set collections. My non collection settling tutor was a rarity in my college.

Thanks everyone - your knowledge is appreciated. Will try very hard not to overthink it, although I am the official family worrier! Luckily, all four of them tend to roll their eyes and say 'it'll be fine Mum'...

DD2's view is that she would rather give it a go and be rejected than go through life thinking that she wished she had tried. It is particularly nice to hear that not everyone at Oxford / Cambridge is a genius & that you can do well with hard work. The porter system sounds caring.

Lol saintly, one of the reasons I'd be happy if my eldest got into Oxford is because she's very lazy and I think the tutorial system would keep her roughly on the rails, out of embarrassment and awkwardness, if nothing else. Was saying this to a college friend, and he did say it hadn't really worked for him!

Littleham getting in with the porters straight away was a very good move, I felt Although tbh I couldn't really avoid being known to them, as my dad sent me about three postcards a week for my entire time there.

Littleham most of the students manage not just to survive but to enjoy their time. If there was a way to predict who would thrive universities would be using it - there isn't. If your child gets a place all you can do is make sure they know about all the welfare services, including the chaplains (who will see people of any faith or no faith). Even if they don't need the services themselves if they have friends who are struggling they need to encourage them to seek help.

The college "families" can sometimes be a source of support too.

alreadytaken your post of less than 24 hours ago would be very scary to those with little contemporary experience of Oxford and quite at odds with this last post. You're well known to have a downer on Oxford but I think perhaps it's time to leave your quarrel, whatever it is (something about Oxford making odd decisions about interviews? Or after interviews?), on one side. There really is no point whatsoever in trying to big up Cambridge over Oxford or Oxford over Cambridge just because you know someone who hasn't got into one or other uni. They're both great unis, with very much the same profile of undergrads and grads and it's phenomenally small minded to try to pick quarrels between the two. It's also remarkably odd to try to deter current applicants by posting a very old out of date story about a tragic event a decade and a half ago, to try to make something of it for some slightly questionable political end of your own. Bottom line is they're both exceptional unis. There are kids there with problems usually deriving from the fact that they're too bloody bright, and the unis are both extremely well equipped to help. That said, they can't always prevent serious illness or tragedy but that's usually because the internal pressures these students feel are too overwhelming that almost nothing will help, but one has to accept that where they can offer effective help in time, both unis will do their damndest to do it.

molio what is your problem? I try to ensure that the information given on this site about Cambridge is accurate because a few people present inaccurate information. I'm not interested in picking quarrrels but in being fair, a concept that doesn't seem to exist in your world. Both universities put pressure on their undergraduates. If you really think things have significantly improved at Oxford you shoud read some of the comments by students who have tried to access the counselling services there. I dont know if the pressure exerted at one university is better or worse than the other but I do know that not all Cambridge colleges behave in the way described in this thread and I suspect some Oxford clleges are better than others.

It's impossible to say if the students who commit suicide while at these universities would have done so if they went to a university with longer terms and degrees that are not solely based on exam results the end of the course. However they certainly don't need additional pressures placed on them. Unlike you I dont have a political agenda, unless it is to try and ensure that everyone knows about welfare services.

alreadytaken I know a good deal about the counselling provision at Oxford, directly.

The only thing I take issue with is your repeated criticism of anything and everything to do with Oxford. Perhaps you don't realise how evident it is. Anyhow, it's not all bad and the article from 1997 is tragic but both extremely out of date and extremely worrying for those with no direct experience of contemporary Oxford.

No need to disagree - all points of view welcome. I probably overreact anyway as this is such new territory & I wasn't expecting that one of my dc's would be this ambitious.

We discussed possible stresses of university last night (although I didn't specify Oxford) and she agreed that if she feels overwhelming stress at any point she will ring to talk it through with us & get help from whichever university she ends up in.

My DH has it about right...no point in worrying about it until she does the test and the process is further along, as it might never happen!

DD2 was contacted by a company offering interview help (very expensive). I guess she has got herself on a mailing list somehow.... I'm afraid we won't be taking up the offer.

Have any of your dc's had the same?

No, never, I'm very surprised.

Oh - anyone else?

The initial contact was via telephone (someone who had supposedly studied at Oxford) and then they sent marketing stuff through the post.

No, never heard of that!

I wonder where they got her details from Littleham DS hasn't had anything but he hasn't done anything 'Oxbridge' related yet - UCAS application is still waiting for school to press send and he isn't doing any tests as he's applying to Cambridge.

Her application is with Ucas now (thank heavens), but it isn't anything to do with them.

It is a private company. She did go to a local exhibition with the school, which had university stands / company stands, so I suspect she got on someone's marketing list.

It sounds like it was from the local exhibition then although I have seen stuff about UCAS selling data but I think that was for targeted advertising rather than passing on personal data.

Dd's school actually gave out details of a company called Oxfizz who were doing mock interviews for £130. We didn't take up the offer but she is having a free mock interview tomorrow which will be done by some parents who volunteer to do this. Not sure how useful it will be but I am also wary of her being over-prepared as I don't think that would go down too well either. I get the impression the universities don't like them to be coached for it.

My feeling is that a bit of preparation for the interview situation is a good thing but anything other than that would be counter productive. DS is still likely to say something a bit 'out there' however much preparation he gets!

As long as DS manages to get through his interview without crying or running from the room I'll be happy. He has an anxiety disorder and hasn't handled interviews well in the past he's having some CBT at the moment and we've contacted the disability resource centre at Cambridge and they said they may be able to offer him some support, we have to get back in touch with them once we know if/when he gets an interview. They've been very helpful actually do I'm reassured that if he gets in he'll be able to access support if he needs it