University admissions people - can I ask how relevant a GCSE in a MFL is when applying for uni?

[LemonMousse]

DD is choosing her GCSE options and is recommended for EBACC to include one humanity and one MFL.

She is being told that universities will require her to have a MFL GCSE. She really doesn't want to take French or German but school are adamant she must choose one. If push comes to shove it will be French as she has studied that since Year 7 and German only since Year 8.

She doesn't believe she will be capable of a decent grade in either (neither do I to be honest but I haven't said that to her) and would rather choose a different (non EBACC) subject that she feels she can achieve a higher grade in.

I realise we are 4 years away from uni but I do want her to have the best possible chance - I don't want her to jeopardise things by NOT having a MFL but at the same time if she can achieve an A or A* in another subject would that not be the better option?

Just after a bit of advice from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

Thank you.

Empathy is indeed useful.

It is a little different for other nations though. So much global popular culture is in English that exposure is easier to come by and motivation increased in spades. It does make a difference.

my DD1 is hopefully off to study MFL at Uni after going through an excellent MFL dept at her comprehensive school. MFL are valued there and they are all required to take at least one language to GCSE but not many go on to AS/A2. I think she has been fortunate in having dedicated and enthusiastic teachers who have been so encouraging ( they regularly stop her in the corridor to pass on a foreign DVD film) but my memory of language teaching (at selective all girls school) was grim ! Hope she chooses a language - broadens horizons !

As I understand it, very few children are labelled dyslexic in Italy as the language is simple enough for most Italian kids who would be labelled dyslexic here to manage it. That might be the way forward for some.

Spelling reform of English would indeed go some way in helping dyslexics.

DS struggled with languages, and didn't do a GCSE.

He applied to 5 top unis, and was offered places at each, including UCL. He has completed his Physics degree at Sheffield, and is now taking a Masters at Imperial, and has been offered a position with the top ranked graduate employer in September.

So it hasn't held him back, although I think that if it is achievable without dragging down your marks, to take one would be advisable.

Haven't read the thread thoroughly, so apologies for any repeats!

It's not just spelling though. There can be a huge problem with acquiring language in small pieces as it were. I find it hard to explain but I'm married to a "dyslexic" and have children who struggle, but fly in other areas. Their thinking is not good on picking up detail but superb at discerning a bigger picture.

Forgot to mention above that I wonder if one reason some UCAS applicants have all/mostly A/A* GCSEs and then a D or an E in a MFL is because of something a colleague of mine mentioned to me years ago. As I understand it, back then anyway, it was only compulsory to study a MFL under the National Curriculum during Key Stage 3. So her daughter started a language in year 7 and along with most of the rest of her year gave it up at the end of year 9, because MFLs were not popular GCSE options. The school management thought that their students ought to have something on their record to show they'd studied a MFL for three years so they put them all in for the GCSE at the end of year 9. Naturally hardly any of them got a C or better. Utter waste of time.

Funnyossity you have it exactly right, DD1 and me are dyslexic and both brilliant scientists and reasonable, geographers and historians.

If it can be chained together into a pattern or a story, that's fine. If like maths or physics you can check back and work through it and spot mistakes it's not bad.

But the fine details in spellings, phone numbers and DD finds technical words in geography they don't use enough, never make it past our awful short term/working memory into long term storage.

Ed pshys do tests on how many numbers you can remember, DD1 and I are absolutely hopeless at them (DH can remember twice as many).

Exactly the same applies to words, if you copy your French vocab 2or3 letters at a time, you never hold all or a meaningful section of the word in your head at once and it never sticks.

There are 1000's of English words I know the general shape of and have read 1000's of times, but I can't spell them.

Gurentee (guarantee) is a perfect example, I can take a stab at the letters that jump out at me, but without auto correct that's it, Clearly in a MFL I haven't been able to read since I was 6 this causes utter chaos.

"It is a little different for other nations though. So much global popular culture is in English that exposure is easier to come by and motivation increased in spades. It does make a difference."

That is one of the most arrogant comments I have seen on Mumsnet for a long time. It is deemed important that foreigners learn English, but it is not deemed necessary for an English person to try and learn something outside English culture. Newsflash! England is part of the EU and being a little Englander is not an option in the 21st century.

"ri 28-Mar-14 21:11:44

I have a daughter who tried both french and spanish and they caused her complete misery and anguish"

Tough shit! Why should every moment of education be enjoyable. Most people hate at least one school subject. I feel that every child in the land should study an MFL to key stage 4, however we need a range of appriopate qualifications to meet individual needs.

Schools need to offer a wider range of modern foreign languages like Polish, Urdu, Japanese or BSL. I believe that BSL would suit many dyslexic people as it is not written down. Prehaps we could do with a qualification in european studies which gives a taster of lots of different languages for SEN kids.

ReallyTired you are quite an arrogant poster yourself!

I would've thought BSL would be a nightmare for dyslexics, wouldn't it? Because doesn't it rely on you memorising how you shape/move your hands so you're having to learn symbols (difficult) and you're having to distinguish between hands/fingers (often difficult).

This is a really interesting thread to read, though. I've got a relative picking GCSEs atm and school doesn't seem very interested in telling them about how choices might be seen at university.

I should add to all this that two of my kids are dyslexic and have coped well with MFL, but this is attributable to excellent teachers at school and a very pro-MFL attitude at home. The best way to get kids learning languages is to let them hear you speak one yourself, so it becomes routine and normal.

Really Tired,
I have not made myself clear perhaps. I am not saying English speakers do not need to learn a new language but that it is often easier for speakers of other languages to gain motivation for and experience of English because of the ubiquity of popular culture from the US and the UK.

Having lived in different countries across several continents, I don't think I am especially arrogant in saying this - it is what speakers if other languages often tell me.

For example, my 17 year old recently did a short stint as a TA in a school in Europe. She commented on the number of hours if English lessons received at school from a young age and was told that if able students want a good job it is accepted that strong English skills are a must. This sentiment is repeated in the country I currently live in. In te Uk, we are not exposed to another language in the same way (eg on tv, radio , youtube, CNN etc). We have to actively seek to learn and exposure can be hard to come by by

There is simply no motivation to learn an MFL if your first language is English unless you go there on holiday.

Given their parents love of Mallorca, the DDs might see some point in Spanish. French and especially German just have to be endured.

My non dyslexic, DD2 will probably do French GCSE because she did it at primary and doesn't find it too hard. German is a four letter word.

"would've thought BSL would be a nightmare for dyslexics, wouldn't it? Because doesn't it rely on you memorising how you shape/move your hands so you're having to learn symbols (difficult) and you're having to distinguish between hands/fingers (often difficult). "

BSL uses the face as much as hands. Its a completely different way to thinking a spoken language. It has its own unique grammar structure and is far more rich than just a set of symbols. Where you sign in space makes a huge difference to what you are saying. Many Deaf (with captical D) people really struggle with literacy and prehaps this has affected the development of BSL.

The special school I used to work in had some profoundly dyslexic children and all hearing children were made to learn BSL as there was a Deaf Unit. I met several profoundly dyslexic children who have mastered BSL far more easily than I did. I really struggled with directional verbs in BSL, but I know several dyslexics who were naturals at BSL.

The dyslexic brain sees the world differently from non dyslexics. For example many dyslexic people have excellent 3-D visualisation skills. The dyslexic way of seeing the world is a boon for learning a language that is in 3-D. As people are keen to educate me dyslexic does not equal stupid or incapable.

"There is simply no motivation to learn an MFL if your first language is English unless you go there on holiday."

What moviation is there to learn History, Geography, RE, Dance or anything else on the school timetable? Most of what we learn at school is of little practical use.

That's really interesting, thank you! I would love to know more.

(But, uh ... there is no 'dyslexic brain' or 'dyslexic way of seeing the world'. I know this is just a quibble but it drives me nuts because people stereotype so often. Obviously you know that! Many dyslexics have terrible 3-D skills and little visual memory. I always think this relates to struggling with orthography, so perhaps if that's not the issue but a child was struggling with languages, BSL would be the answer?).

I also disagree there is 'no motivation' to learn MFL. As really says, loads of things we learn don't have an immediate practical use!

I don't claim to know how a dyslexic person "sees" the world or how their brain works. Anedotely I know several hearing people with profound dyslexia who were naturals at signing. Prehaps its nothing to do with dyslexia and everything to do with the theory of learning styles. (Ie. BSL suits visual or kinestic learners.) So few people have the chance to learn BSL it is hard to do research.

I found BSL grammar incredibly difficult. I have met several people with severe dyslexia who are real naturals at BSL. Although I suppose its possible that this is nothing to do with their dyslexia. For example, its possible that a dyslexic child might grow up to become an olympic athelete, but this is no evidence that dyslexia makes a child good at sport.

Prehaps we need to think what we are trying to achieve when we educate our children. I want my children to be rounded individuals and I feel that involves an appreciation of different cultures. I feel that learning a foreign language gives understanding of a different culture and a different way of thinking.

Not important at all imo.

DS 1 was top of the top set in German and top set French but hated both so dropped them. School wanted him to continue as they like to look good on their ebaac league tables but I wasn't going to let them force him. He choose subjects he really enjoyed instead and has loved the last two years at school.

Let your DCs do what they enjoy not what the school wants for their league tables.

Reallytired is talking nonsense, ignore him/her.

YY, I can believe that, really (about learning styles).

I completely agree with you about cultures.