University admissions people - can I ask how relevant a GCSE in a MFL is when applying for uni?

[LemonMousse]

DD is choosing her GCSE options and is recommended for EBACC to include one humanity and one MFL.

She is being told that universities will require her to have a MFL GCSE. She really doesn't want to take French or German but school are adamant she must choose one. If push comes to shove it will be French as she has studied that since Year 7 and German only since Year 8.

She doesn't believe she will be capable of a decent grade in either (neither do I to be honest but I haven't said that to her) and would rather choose a different (non EBACC) subject that she feels she can achieve a higher grade in.

I realise we are 4 years away from uni but I do want her to have the best possible chance - I don't want her to jeopardise things by NOT having a MFL but at the same time if she can achieve an A or A* in another subject would that not be the better option?

Just after a bit of advice from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

Thank you.

'But is general'

There isn't a university in the world where entry would be precluded because you studied GCSEs in maths, english lang, english lit, a MFL, 3 separate science subjects and history or geography, then the 2/3 remaining choices from drama, music, latin, additional maths, RE, art etc.

MFL may not be a requirement, but in my view, students studying on social science and humanities courses, which were the ones I did admissions for, were disadvantaged by not being able to understand popular library books and newspaper articles written in French and/or German. I am not saying students needed to be able to read great works of literature in the original, or read the German equivalent of the Times each morning, but if you can get the gist of an article in Stern or Paris Match it is amazing what that does in terms of broadening your mind and getting to grips with quite a lot of what goes on at EU level, for example, not to mention understanding social issues in other countries.

All my children are being sent down this route by me, so their education is of the same standard as their German cousins (learning English in their case), with AS Level in Year 11. I doubt my kids could write a perfectly grammatically correct business letter or report without struggling, but they most certainly could all pick up a newspaper or leaflet in Germany and work out more or less what it was saying, or watch the evening news and roughly understand it. They could also attend a dinner party and chat away without embarrassing themselves too much, and make complaints in shops. I think that is what you should aim for with your daughter. A working knowledge of French of German to that level, hopefully backed up by a GCSE.

I would add to this that my children have also done a number of exchanges and summer camps to Germany to bring the language alive, otherwise it can be very difficult for kids to stick at it. I imagine visits to France might be easier for a lot of people, as day trips are possible, plus there are PGL camps in France and so on, so that might represent a good basis for choosing French. Alternatively, if you have plenty of cash (2400 EUR plus flights), the three week long Goethe Institut summer camps for learning German are top notch.

Ultimately school education is only part of what children need, and if parents and universities take a longer term view it can be in everyone's interests.

I agree in principal with MFLs for a rounded education, but my DS is dyslexic and at 15 yrs hates MFLs with a passion.

He has a nice French accent for ordering in a cafe (due to early lessons with a native speaker) but he has founds acquiring a foreign language in school beyond challenging. He has been able to give up MFL now as in his Scottish school they allow only six subjects at the GCSE equivalent level. I'm actually ok with this as I saw -for him - the pointlessness and indeed negative effect of school MFL teaching.

Daffodil, it sounds like what was wrong there was not your DS's dyslexia, but rather the teaching. I hope he manages to find a way to build on his evident language skills to date, in a more rewarding way.

Boffin even in the early (very fun) lessons with the native speaker it was clear it just took so much repetition for anything to be retained. His progress was amazingly bad!

He has been shown to have a poor working memory. The stunning thing to me is just how intelligent he can be about other parts of life and schoolwork.

I have no doubt he would learn to speak well enough were he to move abroad just as long as he never had to write, for even in his first language that has been a challenge.

Learning a MFL even to a limited extent is education is a broader sense. You get to know a bit about another country, have a reason to visit and hopefully can appreciate better when non-English speakers struggle to communicate in English.

That said teaching in schools is often not great and the syllabus is dire. However you can get a long way by ensuring that your kids are exposed to a language either through trips abroad or at home, especially if you have some knowledge of the language or had a friend or neighbour willing to help, perhaps in exchange for English conversation. DC learnt a lot of French by being enrolled in local football and tennis courses when we were on holiday. They were often the only English kids, but luckily we started doing this at a point when they were too young to notice.

That said if you are struggling to get a C, and need to spend time on other subjects as well, I would drop the MFL and focus on English and Maths.

Having a MFL to at least AS level seems to help with applications for very popular courses, in part I assume because this then helps with eligibility to Erasmus programmes. (Universities often have plenty of applications for incoming students but struggle to find students to send back.)

I think that learning an MFL gives an appreciation of a different culture. I don't think that any child should get out of learning an MFL even if they have special needs or simply bad at it.

The special school where I used to work puts children who are incapable of GCSE into entry level courses. They believe that learning an MFL gives better understanding of the world. It is not the end of the world if a child gets a D in French. There is more to life than school league tables.

Do you really want your child to grow up being a thick Brit who thinks that shouting in English is the way to communicate when on holiday?

Was that aimed at me Really Tired?

I note that one of the Discussions of the Day is 'I would be a bad mum if I still lived in Germany'. At the time of writing it has 344 posts and has been promoted to 'MN Classics'.

It neatly shows how exposure to other cultures and languages makes you think about your own and, hopefully, get some insight.

DaffodilBlooms

You and I have different opinons on the value of learning an MFL. I believe that every child should be made to do a key stage 4 qualification in MFL whether they like it or not. If a child is not capable of GCSE then there are entry level certificates.

I worked in a school where the children had major special needs. They had a video conference with a Austrian special school. It was a learning experience for all the staff as well as the children. The British children (who had learning difficulties) could do little more than wave and say "Guten Tag!". The Austrian (who had normal intelligence, but physically disabled) children were able to say their name in English and what their favourite school subject was. The children developed a friendship.

An appreciation of different cultures is essential in the modern world. There is more to life than just Maths and English.

Is it worthwhile doing an activity that you are bad at? Ie. should children with physical disablies do PE when they are never going represent county?

"
That said if you are struggling to get a C, and need to spend time on other subjects as well, I would drop the MFL and focus on English and Maths. "

So should a low ablity child just study GCSE maths and english in the hope of getting a C in two major subjects?

You don't know my full opinions on learning MFL at all Really.

Your comments on thick Brits shouting are quite wide of the mark.

An appreciation of others circumstances is always useful.

My child is not low ability just different to your fixed ideas.

It is a fact that there are plenty of ill mannered shouting Brits in Spain during the tourist season. Unfortunately England also has history of disgraceful behaviour aboard with football hooligans. Prehaps these people were steered away from learning a MFL at key stage 4 because it was deemed too difficult.

I feel we need appriopate courses to suit people of all levels of ablities (in languages). Just because a child may never get a GCSE grade C in a langague doesn't mean that is a waste of time. I don't think our children should be allowed to throw in the towel on learning a language just because it is difficult,

England has the worst language skills in Europe. I am sure that there are plenty of dyslexic children in Europe. In Europe children with special needs are made to learn a foreign language. The difference is that their parents and teachers see learning a language as an asset.

If your child would like experience of learning a language but does not want to do GCSE for some reason and/or don't want a rogue D grade in their cv, Asset Language qualifications were great as they measured positive competencies on the achievement 'ladder' (so no 'failures'. ) and focused on communication. They were especially useful for minority languages; instances where some indication of achievement might be helpful and pupils with spld.

To the disappointment of languages teachers they were stopped a year or so ago and replaced by the qualifications below which I am not familiar with but which might be useful to some.

www.ocr.org.uk/Images/134953-asset-languages-alternative-qualifications.pdf

ReallyTired: Is there any need to be so condescending?

Soon after beginning university in the UK, my eldest DC was given reading to on on a subject upon which there is little written. Of four articles, 2 were in French and one in German. When some class members said they were going to have difficulty, the admittedly off the wall, but very intellectual lecturer was surprised and didn't seem impressed.

Google translate is a game changer here!

DH had problems though in a Civil Service job where it was assumed you could read stuff from Brussels in either French or English. Hence holidays in France and subscriptions to French magazines.

I see I am quoted above. To clarify. If you need grades for tertiary education and are struggling and don't find MfL GCSE easy I think it is fine to prioritise other subjects. But getting a GSCE and learning something is very different. MFLs really are something that can be learned outside school. The real trick is exposure and finding interesting things to do in another language, eg go into a shop and buy croissants or read France Football and see what they say about english teams.

Google translate is a game changer here!

DH had problems though in a Civil Service job where it was assumed you could read stuff from Brussels in either French or English. Hence holidays in France and subscriptions to French magazines.

I see I am quoted above. To clarify. If you need grades for tertiary education and are struggling and don't find MfL GCSE easy I think it is fine to prioritise other subjects. But getting a GSCE and learning something is very different. MFLs really are something that can be learned outside school. The real trick is exposure and finding interesting things to do in another language, eg go into a shop and buy croissants or read France Football and see what they say about english teams.

Phone...no idea why it posted twice.

Really Tired : Forget my last question, your last post's first paragraph was not condescending but revoltingly idiotic.

I'd quite like an informed debate on football related violence at home and in Europe but I'll not get it here anymore than any insight into language learning beyond the formulaic "key stage 4" type of contribution.

Given that student control numbers are going next year and universities will have as many places as they can support, I would say that might influence admissions criteria. However when you say a decent grade do you mean she might get a B or C? If so I think it's still worth doing instead of something else.

Isn't the big difference between the UK and the rest of Europe that even now we don't start proper MFL teaching until secondary school? Far too late for a lot of children. There was supposed to be a programme to introduce some MFL teaching in primary schools, but I have no idea how it's going. If it's as useless as the trial scheme I endured when I was at primary school, it will be a complete waste of time and money. We had one lesson a week from a non-specialist. Everything was oral, no grammar teaching, no attempt to teach us to read or write French. I learned more in my first week of secondary French than I had in a whole four terms at primary school.

I had the great good luck to go to secondary school at a time when O level MFL teaching included lots of grammar. We did learn to speak the language too. I took French and German to O level in the late 70s and I would say I have a much better grasp of French even now than my daughter who took GCSE French just a few years ago. This is not down to a difference in aptitude for language learning as she is doing a Classics degree and has got to a very good standard in both Latin and Ancient Greek. My impression is that the syllabus now is nothing like as demanding as it was when I did O level 35+ years ago.

Relying on the rest of the world to speak English has to be a very bad idea for anyone hoping to export to a non-English-speaking country, just for starters.

"Relying on the rest of the world to speak English has to be a very bad idea for anyone hoping to export to a non-English-speaking country, just for starters."

100% agree. It is the upmost arrogance to expect the rest of the world to speak English. (even if they do!)

It is true that children in europe tend to start learning languages early. My son had french lessons privately through an after school club from reception. Unforuntately these stopped in year 3. He then had to endure horrendously boring French lessons that never went beyond basic phases for the rest of juniors. Many Europeans can speak several languages. It is possible for a child (with blood, sweat and tears effort) to learn other languages from scratch in secondary school. My son is making amazing progress in German inspite of being a new subject and neither of his parents know a word.

Other European countries have a completely different attitude to languages. Often if you go abroad and attempt to speak the language people will respect you for trying. Many foreigners understand how hard it is to learn a foreign language. They have gained empathy from struggling to learn English!

Back to the thread. Not having an MFL wont prevent your child going to uni. I don't think that having a D in French GCSE will prevent someone going to uni if all their other GCSEs are good.