UCAS forms sent - just the waiting game now !

[snowyowl70]

My super organised DD1 has had email today to say her forms/reference have been received and should be at her chosen Unis in the next 48 hrs !!!!! So the waiting begins - to those seasoned parents who have done this before can you remember how long they had to wait for their first responses ? At least 2 out of her 5 may call her for interview (MFL) so am guessing these might be fairly on the ball ?

My sources are a. being an historian doing a PhD (though very specialist and cross disciplinary) and knowing academics at all these institutions (no particular downer on Oxford, know / have been taught/ have liaised with academics at both, but my opinion is based not on the library, but what is taught and how and by whom, presumably why student satisfaction is higher for History at Durham than Oxford and Cambridge and employment prospects better at Durham than Oxford as well) and b. DDs' peers. You can do the what, when, where, by whom and whys of that yourselves

Admittedly amongst DDs' peers it is more normal for them to decide not to apply to Oxbridge in the first place than to choose somewhere else over it but it happens. I actually wonder if it is a gender thing, with the exception of St Pauls and possibly Wycombe, none of the most selective girls' schools send as many to Oxbridge as the boy's schools. I know that is because though there are many who would have a good chance of getting in and they are encouraged, many decide that they prefer other courses, the atmosphere at other unis, don't want to put themselves through the selection process etc. etc., and that is even after the school has taken them in a coach and laid on all manner of freebies for them and the alumnae in the most atmospheric college / institution that will give them a room in an attempt at brainwashing. Not sure why that would be, girls not being encouraged to lift their sights high enough? or just having minds of their own?

And to help with the who, I was the latter . In fact I had such a mind of my own in wanting to study the History I wanted to study back in the 70s (which has now become the History most studied) that I had to be summoned to the Headmistress's study and told that since I refused to stay for the seventh term they felt it was entirely reasonable that they refused to sign and send off my UCCA form until I removed Kent from my list of perferences

Well if she is considered the right standard, we will put our faith in ventura's belief that it is simple.

Thanks for this article (below) shooting - some of the comments underneath the main piece gave me the heebiejeebies. Have you read them? DD2 certainly doesn't have access to the interview training that they speak about.

www.theguardian.com/education/2012/jan/10/how-cambridge-admissions-really-work

Shootingpigeons - You are talking a lot of nonsense. There are loads of girls that go to Oxbridge, this is slightly elderly (from 2011) but it gives you the drift, it comes from the Sutton Trust research link here:
www.suttontrust.com/public/documents/sutton-trust-he-destination-report-final.pdf

Successful applications to Oxbridge:
Name of school, type of school, number of students to Oxbridge over 3 years (2009,2010,2011), percentage of students that go to Oxbridge, av exam points per student going to Oxbridge

St Pauls Girls School IND 129 45.7% 471.4
Westminster School IND 235 44.4% 543.2
The Stephen Perse Foundation IND 42 41.2% 518.7
St Pauls School, London IND 167 35.6% 464.6
North London Collegiate School IND 107 32.5% 504.3
Winchester College IND 106 32.4% 472.6
Wycombe Abbey School, High Wycombe IND 74 32.3% 513.9
Oxford High School GDST IND 70 31.0% 472.9
Magdalen College School, Oxford IND 69 29.2% 467.4
Eton College IND 211 28.1% 474.3
City Of London School For Girls IND 59 27.2% 445.3
James Allens Girls School IND 67 24.5% 504.8
Haberdashers' Aske's School For Girls, Elstree IND 90 24.1% 421.3
Guildford High School IND 60 24.0% 461.2
King's College School IND 104 22.8% 565.9
Royal Grammar School Guildford IND 88 22.1% 425.3
Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet SEL 88 22.0% 487.0
University College School IND 62 20.7% 425.7
Sevenoaks School IND 96 20.6% 607.8
Haberdashers' Askes's Boys ' School IND 94 20.5% 427.8
South Hampstead High School IND 44 20.2% 428.6
Manchester Grammar School IND 109 19.6% 430.2
Cheltenham Ladies' College IND 59 19.5% 446.6
Colchester Royal Grammar School SEL 72 18.8% 592.8
The Perse School IND 59 18.3% 454.2
The Godolphin And Latymer School IND 49 17.6% 448.2
City Of London School IND 63 17.5% 449.1
St Catherine's School, Bramley IND 30 17.5% 486.5
Highgate School IND 69 17.1% 425.5
Reading School SEL 64 16.7% 443.3
The School Of St Helen & St Katharine IND 40 16.5% 434.1
Withington Girls' School IND 39 16.2% 571.0
Abingdon School IND 50 16.0% 426.0
St Marys School, Ascot IND 22 15.9% 457.0
Tonbridge School IND 65 15.8% 435.1
Colyton Grammar School SEL 45 15.4% 568.9
Kendrick School SEL 45 15.2% 475.2
The Tiffin Girls School SEL 63 15.2% 517.2

Those percentages are so high.

My dd's school would read - NON-SEL number - 1 - percentage 0.2% !! Slight difference there.

littleham They are very selective girls' schools and those percentages are not as high as the corresponding very selective boys' schools. It was that comparison I was making, not on absolute numbers and I was speaking from personal experience of those in West London that are on that list.

Littleham - As well as contextual info about your daughter's school, Oxford and Cambridge (and many others) use contextual information about your address. You can check your address here:
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/inyourarea/idaci.pl

And here is the info on how Oxford use the flags:

So compare schools very able boys might go to from this area Westminster, St. Paul's, Kings College School, Eton, Winchester, typically versus for girls St. Paul's girls' School, Wycombe, NLCS, LEH, Godolphin and Latymer and there is a marked difference, especially in numbers which I can't be bothered to dig out, the boys schools tend to have larger cohorts (including admittedly some taking girls for sixth form). I am not talking nonsense, I am talking real girls.

Yes please do Littleham, because it really is :). She just needs to follow the website advice and be good, but she doesn't need magic.

Shooting, you've said that you were an undergrad at Southamptom though, haven't you? (sorry if that's wrong). And you've also said a number of times where you are now, which if I've read it correct is a very long way south of Durham (sorry again if that's wrong). So I'm not quite sure where the intelligence comes from, other than rumour, or generalization, which as you'll know can be dodgy. I'm afraid I simply don't buy the idea that any academic in the History department at Durham would agree that more than the odd very singular undergraduate rejects an Oxford or Cambridge offer for Durham. That doesn't mean that some wouldn't have been more suited to Durham, but the fact remains that the Durham History department is stuffed to the gunwales with Oxbridge rejects not the other way round.

Also, without wishing to be in any way confrontational, I'm really not sure that the experience of your DDs' peers is peculiarly valuable, even if their schools do send several, or plenty, to Oxford and Cambridge each year. The Oxford and Cambridge stats show the gender balance for History which really isn't extreme.

I can say with no risk of libel that in my day undergraduates could be disappointed of their expectation of a history lecture because the tutor called in sick when in fact he was in the smart local hotel with his arm around a comely second year undergraduate. So much for good teaching :) (I was the undergraduate who spilled the beans, having taken a short cut from the river to the lecture room in the icy weather through the said smart hotel. The second year undergraduate in question also lived next door to me and was having regular meltdowns about the affair :( ).

That's really interesting and the clips are really useful. We would only have one flag - namely not many people sent to Oxbridge from school. Do other universities use these flags?

Shooting the problem as I see it is that you generalize too much from your DDs' West London private school experience. Since you're a/an historian that surprises me a bit.

Yes lots use flags in effect.

Sorry littleham. This must sound discouraging which it is not meant to be, these are some of the most selective schools in the country, and add to that the pupils are from families who are likely to be predisposed to apply. As you saw from the link I posted Oxbridge colleges cut those pupils very little slack because if they are bright enough those schools will have equipped them to succeed. The interviewers at Oxbridge regardless of what they offer academically, which you can judge subjectively or objectively in any way you chose, are looking beyond that sort of preparation to objectively judge whether a candidate has got what it takes to succeed best on a course. They do that partly because of all the evidence that taking into account contextual factors actually enables them to select pupils who have a better chance of doing well. I have experience of that in a little way through a mentoring charity I am involved with. Some of the pupils we support achieve amazing things at Oxbridge though without any of the educational and social advantages of DCs who went to those schools.

Littleham, don't worry too much about flags and things that make you feel you are 'on the back foot'. If she really is interested, ask her teachers for book recommendations for the Summer holidays; think about an EPQ if offered at school.

The best interview prep is to get used to talking and discussing ideas in class and outside - ask lots of questions of the A Level teachers. Contrary to impressions this is what constitutes most prep at any school. Talking to unfamiliar adults is helpful if an interview is granted.

No don't say sorry because this is all so useful and I wouldn't have found this information without you.

It's a shame that the contextual thing doesn't go a tiny bit further, because to get the other two flags you need to live in a completely dire area and be in care. I would prefer traffic lights RED (3 flags) AMBER (1 flag) GREEN (0 flags). But maybe they do that anyway.

Thanks Slipshodsibyl. The EPQ really helped my eldest daughter. DD2 is very good at talking to people & does well in interviews. Will get onto the book recommendation too.

Shooting there is a huge, huge variation in the selectivity of the schools in the list. Also in parental predisposition to encourage DC to apply to Oxford and Cambridge. Steady on with your generalizations! I really do feel you need to be more nuanced, because sweeping and ill informed generalizations can put people off.

Also very dubious about the boy/ girl hypothesis too. I just don't detect a serious difference at all, whether on a domestic, local, regional, national or international one. It just doesn't seem significant at all - though quite happy to be proved wrong.

I'm off to another offer holders day tomorrow (Royal Holloway / London). This is a possible reserve choice for dd1. Still no reply from Durham, but they did say to me that they will be replying to all applications by end of March.

Shootingatpigeons Tue 04-Mar-14 22:31:24
"littleham They are very selective girls' schools and those percentages are not as high as the corresponding very selective boys' schools. It was that comparison I was making, not on absolute numbers ... "

Can you tell me which west London girls' school does't get as many girls into Oxbridge as boys in its corresponding boys' school?

Because City of London Girls gets more girls into Oxbridge than city of London Boys. Habs Girls gets more girls in than Habs Boys. I could go on. But perhaps you could tell me all these schools that support what you said about girls at top girls schools not applying for Oxbridge.

'www.ice.cam.ac.uk/history
Things like this might be of interest.

ventura I have never claimed it was more than personal experience in terms of DDs schools and peers and the feedback I get from other academics. As I said, the who what etc., sources have to be evaluated in context and in comparison with other sources, and then opinions arrived at, but that doesn't negate the value of personal testimony.

If girls at some of the most selective schools in the UK, moreover from the geographical areas that are vastly over represented at Oxbridge, are making different decisions about Oxbridge than the ones you subjectively judge they should be making, maybe that is food for thought.

Personally I think there is an overriding assumption from some on here that Oxbridge is best and the only choice a rational DC with a chance of getting in would make which isn't rational. I am saying that whilst some might want the name, the libraries (on that score surely you would be wanting to be near the archives and libraries of London), the dreaming spires, certain aspects of the Oxbridge courses etc etc it is not a totally irrational and unheard of decision to prefer the course at another top university, especially if it is rated higher on objective measures of student satisfaction, research ratings, employability, the reviews of other global academics etc. The last Head of St Paul's actually acknowledged that whilst they publicised their results in terms of Oxbridge success he acknowledged that for some boys other top courses at other top universities were actually even more selective and would provide a better opportunity for realising their ambitions, so that they were not the be all and end all. That seem realistic to me.

Thanks slipshodsibyl - looks very interesting. Will show it to daughter. Signing off now, got to get some sleep - this thread is addictive.

Shooting - this is what you said:
"with the exception of St Pauls and possibly Wycombe, none of the most selective girls' schools send as many to Oxbridge as the boy's schools."

Do you actually have any experience of the most selective girls schools? You don't appear to as otherwise you would know that they are very good at getting their students into Oxbridge colleges.

And you still haven't told me which schools you had in mind.

Littleham The online modules offered via Oxford Continuing Ed. might of interest to your DD if there are any modules that match her interests. I gather a few sixth formers are now using them, rather like the EPQ to give them an introduction to degree level study and widen their knowledge. There are no entry requirements though it costs around £200, so all sorts take part, but there are always some who will engage intelligently in the forums and they are hosted by Oxford Academics (who rise to the challenge of always finding something positive to give feedback on) who provide feedback at the end. They require some time to engage with the material and the forum each week and then there are two pieces of not particularly onerous for an A2 student work. DD did one along with her EPQ in the Autumn term, they were complementary. She didn't try for Oxford but just wanted a chance to go off piste outside the restrictions of the A level curriculum. I have no idea if there would be any feedback to other colleges, but some students with unorthodox backgrounds certainly get in via that route. www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/results.php?search=History&submitbutton=Search&multisearch=single&search_startdate=Starting+on+or+after+%28date%29#rightcontent

Shooting I think you might be attempting to say that most girls at West London indies might be opting for first choices which aren't Oxford or Cambridge but a) does that really stack up? (check out SPGS for example) and b) are they perhaps the not wholly undeserving victims of contextualization, jumping before they're pushed?. (It is after all conceivable that academic potential lies outside the moneyed classes/ M25).

I have an exactly equal number of DDs and DSs and in terms of Oxbridge entrance there's no distinction, none at all.