UCAS forms sent - just the waiting game now !

[snowyowl70]

My super organised DD1 has had email today to say her forms/reference have been received and should be at her chosen Unis in the next 48 hrs !!!!! So the waiting begins - to those seasoned parents who have done this before can you remember how long they had to wait for their first responses ? At least 2 out of her 5 may call her for interview (MFL) so am guessing these might be fairly on the ball ?

The list I gave you. Westminster, Kings, St Paul's, Winchester, Eton versus St. Paul's Wycombe, NLCS , LEH, G&L. that would be the subjective top tier of single sex boys and girls schools in this area (leaving out Latymer as truly coed). Not that I particularly subscribe to such judgements of the worth of schools either but they would be the most selective schools being considered by parents. When it isn't quarter to twelve I might put the numbers together. I am not going to out my DDs or the school by telling you which of those schools my DDs went to. And actually one did apply to Cambridge, but only because she felt the Natural Sciences course was exactly what and how she wanted to study, The other was asked but wants to study a joint honours not studied at Oxbridge though she did vacillate after someone told her they love quirky dyslexics like her

Ventura firstly I have made it clear that I am entirely a fan of giving pupils outside the moneyed classes inside the M25 the knowledge and motivation to apply to top unis including Oxbridge. I actually devote time and resources to trying to help bright pupils, admittedly inside the South circular, without the benefit of the privileges we have been lucky enough to be able to give my DDs, and press gang them in as well.

All I am trying to say is that all those pupils make a choice of university according to the factors that are important to them, for all sorts of reasons, including I well know parental expectation, and schools seeking the name. And that it is entirely rational that some do choose other than Oxbridge, especially if it is the History course at Durham which is very highly regarded and scores more highly than Oxford for all sorts of objective measures, and in the various league tables. And that in my experience it does happen.

Shooting you do seem very defensive about Oxbridge: you've explained on this thread why you didn't apply, why your DD1 did, and your DD2 didn't - it's really not a problem, but you make it sound like one.

Thanks Shooting and apologies for the cross post. Well all I'd say is that in my experience History at Oxford suits some better than others and the same can be said about Durham. If the students are prepared to suck up the concrete apocalypse of a library. And frozen milk bottles and cisterns in winter. But I don't believe that Oxford needs to be slagged off especially, it must have a few good points after all.

Ventura I don't mean to come across as defensive so much as trying to emphasise that I don't have a prejudice one way or another. I think Oxbridge is great for many courses and certainly for the dreaming spires experience if that is what you want. I respect that some people want to go there in spite of the course. One of my DDs friends did an essay based course on Physiology which even she admitted was more eighteenth than twenty first century . I do think Cambridge has the edge over Oxford in many academic areas, it just feels more open minded and forward thinking somehow, and, this is highly subjective and woolly, Oxford academia seems a little staid, and I do think certain departments and courses at other top universities have the edge over those at one or both. That tends to be backed up by objective measures.

That is why I would always encourage a DC to make that decision based on the factors that matter to them, rather than pressure from schools, parents etc. I am not entirely sure that always happens, or that parents entirely appreciate that Oxbridge is not the be all and end all. It is all so much more competitive now in any case that open minds are pretty much essential to make sure that the admissions process is a positive one, and if there is one single factor most responsible for drop outs and unhappiness with course choices it is parental influence.

Oh and Ventura . Just spotted your musings on my geography! I am London based, and I did indeed study Pirates of the Caribbean and left wing social history at Southampton but I come from oop north, so I am certainly not averse to a trip up, I speak the language and everything, but actually in these virtual times, geography, and libraries, lovely or unlovely, are much much less of an issue. I and the Durham, Oxford and Cambridge academics I know are actually working with people on different continents, never mind 250 miles.

Both my DDs want to work abroad, and not just Europe, or in western countries, so that global perspective is really important to them, which is actually why my DD2 is waivering on her course choice. She is worried about the focus of study being exclusively on a Euro centric canon. A factor that is crucial for her but might not even occur to others.

Shooting you have mentioned the Physiology course that you do not rate at Oxford before. Maybe they have read your comments too and agreed as they don't actually run it anymore.

Shooting - you said "I am entirely a fan of giving pupils outside the moneyed classes inside the M25 the knowledge and motivation to apply to top unis including Oxbridge. I actually devote time and resources to trying to help bright pupils, admittedly inside the South circular, without the benefit of the privileges we have been lucky enough to be able to give my DDs, and press gang them in as well." Isn't the south circular entirely within the M25? And how odd to be a proponent of fair access and so snidey about the moneyed classes within the M25 yet send your own children to one of the independent schools mentioned, which are all very expensive and, erm, within the M25.

Also, Oxford and Cambridge have the lowest dropout rates of all the universities in the UK.

I think TheBeautifulVisit makes a good point about the strikingly low drop out rate at Oxford and Cambridge, which would suggest that parental influence (which you cite as the single most decisive factor in that respect) features significantly less there than elsewhere!

You do seem a very strong supporter of Durham, but if you didn't go there, and haven't taught there, and you don't even have DC there, I wonder how you come to form that strength of opinion? In all your comments as to the relative merits of Oxford, Cambridge and Durham for historians (obviously I use the term merit loosely as regards Oxford), I note that you haven't mentioned the very different method of teaching. Do you see no particular value in the one to one (or two) tutorial/ supervision system? On that front of course Durham can't come near.

Talking to my boss yeterday and he thinks the main loss from Oxbridge (our department anyhoo) will be to the States.

I don't know if this is Chicken Licken stuff (some of the profs are forever predicting that the sky will fall ) or if it will end up being correct.

I am sure this is getting very boring for others and me .

beautiful last night your post implied I was saying girls don't get into Oxford in the same numbers, I didn't. I said that the girls in my DDs peer group who go to selective schools outside of St Paul's and Wycombe, who send a fair number to Oxbridge were not choosing to apply. If you add the Sutton statistics on admissions to top universities to the ones on Oxbridge entry for the most selective schools DDs peers attend, totally subjective, lots of variables (including US university entries) , you get

Ranked by % entering top universities followed by percentage going to top universities and percentage to Oxbridge

NLCS (girls) 92.7 32.5
Westminster (boys but coed in sixth form) 88.8 44
St Paul's girls (girls) 88.7 45
St Paul's (boys) 88.7 35.6
Winchester (boys) 88.1 3
Kings (boys, co Ed sixth form) 87.1 22
Wycombe (girls) 86.5 32
LEH (girls) 86.2 14
G&L (girls) 81.3 16
Eton (boys) 78.3 28

So of you take the girls schools outside of st Paul's and Wycombe you will indeed see that though they achieve a high number of admissions to top universities it tends to be a smaller percentage to Oxbridge. Take it from me that they are not failing to get in if they apply, they are just choosing not to apply for a whole load of reasons, all of which are rational and valid. So yes it happens, bright DCs who would have a good chance of getting in do choose not to apply. I didn't claim universality beyond that subjective experience, just that it happens.

And I was attacked for being focused on that subjective experience. I am not, I am aware it is a bubble, and I cited that I do indeed leave the bubble, I did say admittedly to within the South Circular, that's just the geography, the mentoring charity I am involved with was started within my work community, but it does means that I am very well aware it is a bubble of privilege. Yes we chose to live and educate my children in that bubble,and in private schools at that, but does that mean I can't comment on certain aspects of that experience that I don't perceive as entirely positive without being "snidely"

Ventura I am sorry but based on my experience and that of academics at those universities and indeed who have moved between the universities I will continue to have more regard for the departments at Cambridge and Durham . That is my subjective opinion and that of many others, and the league tables . You are entitled to yours. The one to one tutorial system can work well but I know of instances where students have had disastrous experience with tutors who were unwilling, unable or too busy to prepare them adequately for exams. The other system works well too and isn't necessarily inferior, at the top universities you will be getting tutorials in small groups too, and DD is getting one on one supervision of her diss from a leading Scientist even I have heard of. The student satisfaction ratings for the History course at Durham do exceed those at Oxford. you may perceive prejudice in me, frankly I perceive prejudice in you.

So can we agree to disagree, please...... I have a terrible temptation to procrastinate but this is becoming as hard work as the real stuff

Shooting - we need the source for those figures for them to make any sense. The Winchester figures look wrong... 3% to Oxbridge really?

I suspect the figures are numbers to UK selective universities. And some schools (like Eton) have a more global reach when it comes to university. SO you just can't extrapolate as you have.

Beautiful that was a typo, but as I wrote, "from the Sutton statistics" which you have already linked to, there is also a table there of percentage admission to the top unis as defined by them. And Beautiful I have included any number of reservations, caveats etc. I am not extrapolating, I am quoting personal experience which is reflected in those figures.

But I really don't understand why believing that DC should make up their own minds about the universities they go to based on the factors that matter to them, and that that won't necessarily be Oxbridge even if they have a chance of getting in, whilst acknowledging that in many schools the pupils are not equipped with the motivation and knowledge to make a rational choice and that problem needs to be addressed (and doing something about it) opens me up to so much forensic scrutiny. I am not one of those people who comes on here and damns Oxbridge, but I seem to have provoked the same reaction. Is there no room to say that Oxbridge whilst a brilliant choice for some, isn't necessarily the best choice for every able pupil, and some choose to go elsewhere? If you really believe that then there is no point having a discussion is there we are going to have to agree to disagree. I am sure others reading here now have more than enough evidence from her and elsewhere to put our respective viewpoints in context and make up their own minds.

If your table's from the sutton stats - how come there's a typo? eh? And what should it have been? And are there any more typos?

I really agree that different universities and courses suit different people. A stellar uni might not suit everyone, especially if it is really pressurised. That's why we advised dd to visit all her offers holders days.

We just did one today (London) and whilst she liked the campus etc. she has decided she will probably let this one go. One interesting point was that they were offering a £3000 scholarship if you FIRMED and achieved AAA at A2. I was tempted even if my dd was not!

My DS has just firmed a less prestigious uni than another offer from a more well thought of uni following his offer day. He felt more at ease, thought that the're was more support, the modules, the staff etc were better for him.

I think that at the end of the day, they have to study and live there, so they need to feel settled rather than just going for the name. There are only a few firms that are blinkered into only considering the place of study, I know I wouldn't like to work for someone who only took that into account

beautiful Two separate tables, so I transcribed from each, not perfectly, sorry, my proof reading isn't perfect at the best of times but this is mumsnet, not a select committee.

My head would explode too if I had not decided to take the zen approach, and a typo on Winchester percentage of anything on a mumsnet thread really isn't worth a nervous breakdown is it?

So this is a thread about our experience of the UCAS process.....

Littleham We got the £3000 offer if 3 As too, at Sussex too, along with the reduction to an ABB offer if we firm. But I don't think we are going to see it. Three of DDs friends have firmed their unconditional offers for Birmingham after offers days though.

Shooting given that I myself am a Durham graduate, married to a Durham historian, with a Cambridge offer for postgrad, and with DC currently at Oxford studying History and benefiting from superb teaching from leading names in their field, yet still hoping for a Durham offer for History for the current DS (as I think it may well suit him better than Oxford (which has given him an easier offer than Durham's would be), I hardly think it would be possible to detect bias :)

I would genuinely be interested to know what direct experience (as a student or tutor or as a parent of either) you yourself have of Durham, Oxford or Cambridge, because your declared CV would suggest little or none. Which you have to admit weakens credibility somewhat. I think you're excellent at helping those nervous of London's expense, or lack of/ fragmented social life and on general London uni advice, but on Durham/ Oxford/ Cambridge undergraduate experience for historians I think you may be suggesting that you know more than you actually do. Which actually isn't that helpful.

ventura No I am not going to post or message you my detailed CV, all the academics I have been taught by, taught with, have connections with, which schools, unis and courses DDs and their peers and friends' DCs have attended etc etc etc because this is mumsnet not a job application, or indeed some sort of vetting process for god knows what club. I and they have a right to privacy, and in the circumstances I am regretting how much I have already given away, and how far I got sucked into this. It is all getting a little bit bizarre, having an opinion that differs to yours seems to make you feel you to be able to put me in some sort of box, sort of a virtual version of being called out for pistols at dawn. Frankly I don't much care what box you want to put me in, make whatever assumptions best make you feel comfortable, or to have won the duel . Other posters can and will interpret my advice and your advice as they wish.

I wondered if I could ask all the experts another question? (regarding UCAS / clearing).

If your DC has an offer from a particular uni and declines it & then subsequently bombs out in their exams (missing their FIRM and their INSURANCE), are they then allowed to enter clearing to take back a place at the declined offer if it was available? Or would they have a black mark against their name?

I have a slight tendancy to be pessimistic!

Littleham, do the maths to work out the marks he needs to get at A 2 to achieve his offer. In order to miss the offers you have quoted, given the AS results you have listed, he needs to do far, far worse than to date. If you need some reassurance, speak to his teachers.

Thanks. The AS marks I've been talking about recently were for dd2 & are only predicted. My first daughter's AS's were good but not as high, so any dropped mark could cause potentially cause problems. Her teachers think she shoud make the marks, but they can overpredict & anyway you can end up with awful papers.

That's why I was wondering whether an initial choice would take you back through clearing?

No reason why not Littleham. Probably best not to overthink it if she does need Clearing, but hopefully she won't.

I understand completely what you say Shooting and very likely you have given away too much, but there's an obvious problem on MN where a university can be slagged off by someone who may have no direct contact with it whatsoever. I've seen it done with Cambridge too. Sometimes someone else with more direct experience just wants to add a degree of support. And since Littleham's DD has had History at Oxford suggested, I was simply saying it's a great course for some, plenty of students love the course and plenty go to read History primarily without being on a quest for your 'dreaming spires experience' . It's as straightforward as that.

I think most students will get one to one dissertation help actually, though it's nothing like as regular as a weekly event, it's generally much less frequent. That's kind of the point. Durham history students get one to one dissertation help too, it's very usual indeed, but they get nothing which replicates an Oxford tutorial. Classes used to be much smaller, but they've grown. It's fine, but it's definitely not the same intense type of teaching. That's probably the key distinction between the two.

Daughter number 2 came home last night and said that she is in this group her school have selected out. This is a new venture for her state school. They have selected about ten out from about 200+ in year 12, who they think there might be a possibility - but she knows that the odds are against her & we still have the AS exams to come anyway. I'm guessing that only one or two from that group will end up with a place at most.

She says that the school left it open for them to choose whether they put Oxford or Cambridge on the form, so she chose Oxford as she thinks it might be a challenge to get an A (both Cambridge & Durham require an A at History it seems). I think she also reasoned that Oxford is closer to home.

We would be just as happy with any decent university, as long as she likes it. Am more worried about dd1 achieving her grades!

littleham a girl I know got rejected by her first choice, failed to meet the requiremnets of her firmed offer...then got a place at her first choice through clearing!!!!