As a parent, do you feel your DC's Uni "should" communicate with you?

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A general question really, I work for a uni and we regularly get complaints from parents that we should have told them stuff.

But, the student is an adult and the contract is between the student and the university, even if parents are paying the fees/living allowance.

In some cases we would be breaking confidentiality by informing parents (e.g. Health issues), in others, I just think it's odd that parents get involved (e.g. student not picked for sports team).

Would appreciate some views/experiences

Oh and it's great you are going that extra mile for your students (I think) I hope that they are appreciative. My department generally wasn't there in the summer term at all - International Politics department it was expected that they would be doing research all term probably not in the country.

So should universities should just fail the student who doesn't submit work? I think that without mitigating circumstances perhaps they should.

Why don't they? Because it looks bad on the institution; failure rates etc?

And is that just perpetuating the problem as the students know they'll get a second chance?

"So should universities should just fail the student who doesn't submit work"

I don't see why not. If I'm supposed to turn up at work and do some work but don't bother then it would be the door. Similarly some professional jobs have exams which, if you fail, even first time, you'll get sacked. It happened to a friend of mine at my place of employment

Because it looks bad on the institution; failure rates

I'm sorry you're so cynical about it. We, on the other hand, dealing with hundreds of 18 to 21 year olds every year, realise they do make errors of judgement.

What I don't appreciate is the broad brush condemnation from some people of universities' care for their undergraduates.

Many students seem to see no contradiction at all between talking about 'getting their money's worth' and not attending/participating. Some do cite part-time jobs, yes, and sometimes that might even be true. But equally, many will say 'I dont plan to write on that text so didn't think it would be worth coming in', or have endless 'family situations' or problems with housemates or sniffly colds which result in disproportionate absences.

Students will also often state that feedback is 'not timely' even though it's back within our clearly stated turnaround time (three weeks) or less, because they actually want it immediately and class anything else as not timely. They also quite often don't open the marked essay or the feedback sheet: just want to know the number and nothing else.

One student complained that his tutor had 'more time to mark my essay than I had to write it'. Yes. Because your tutor was marking not just your essay but those of everyone else in that and probably three other seminar groups as well.

I know many delightful motivated students, but also many whose attitude it surprising for people who feel they are paying a lot of money for what's on offer.

I'm not cynical UptheChimney.

It was a question not a statement. Why don't universities fail more students who don't deliver the goods?

Why don't universities fail more students who don't deliver the goods?

Whether or not a student turns up for class, we still need to pay for the buildings, utilities and have employed staff to teach them. Also drop-out rates are monitored, and if they go to high then we could be subject to investigation as well as having league table problems.

Some students don't want to do the work, but they sure as hell know how to use the appeals system if we try to kick them out! In many ways it is easier to keep them on the books than have to prepare to defend our actions to the OIA.

As Upthechimney says, many students are brilliant. I have students going through some horrendous circumstances (cancer, rape, miscarriage etc etc) that are still working hard on their degree (refusing leave of absence or rearranged assessments).

But others are just lazy or disinterested and do not want to study.

Three weeks does seem very long to me. Have the students started their next assignment by then? I'd certainly expect to give feedback at work with a much swifter turn around time (policies, guidance etc) but then that's where there is an expectation of revisions being made. (I am of course aware that marking an essay is probably much more time consuming than reviewing a policy, but then writing an essay is much more time consuming than either).

I would imagine the main reason for not doing what you are supposed to do is general laziness and apathy, but the latter is surely a combination of student and lecturer responsibility? I think it can be difficult to stay motivated on arts courses where student/lecturer contact is very low as compared with more practical courses, which have a very different set up. I know the courses that I was least motivated about were the ones where the content was boring/esoteric some of the compulsory political theory courses were just mind numbing! Of course the professor probably wouldn't agree

Why don't universities fail more students who don't deliver the goods

Sorry I misjudged your tone -- we don't tend to fail them because we really try to nurture every bright young person that comes to us.

But sadly, what creamteas and SteamingNit say is also true. Particularly re "assessment" -- and really, what the complainers (a minority but they're the ones we have to deal with) want is a guaranteed First. Tomorrow.

I once had a student comment on one of my modules (in a specialist area in which I do high-level research) that it was difficult to miss any of my classes because the assessment required that they had to come to all seminars. In the next breath that student complained about paying such a high price for her education.

So she complained about paying a high price (not something I can do anything about -- vote differently!) but implied that she didn't take advantage of what was on offer for what she was paying.

Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

So where do they get these venal and instrumentalist approaches and points of view? Parents? Teachers? Politicians?

the ones where the content was boring/esoteric to you and in your opinion. Not to others, or the discipline, or the tutors, who might actually know more about the subject and what is a solid grounding in it than the students?

Three weeks does seem very long to me. The thing is, an education is not a workplace nor employment for students. It's learning. It happens over time, and by the student working on themselves.

But would you like me to spell out what has to be done in 3 weeks in order to get an essay back to a student?

1. I'm already working more than 40 hours a week anyway.
2. The essays are submitted by 4pm; they're processed over the next 2-3 days. So I'm likely to get them 3 days after the submission date.
3. All markers meet to set criteria & boundaries: 90 minute meeting, generally at lunchtime.
4. For a core module, I mark maybe 50 essays of 3,000 words each (150,000 words), at 20 minutes per essay reading (with a lot of written marginal comments). Then I have to type up a feedback sheet, which is at least another 15 minutes -- generally longer, once I've double-checked the ID number and filled in all the sections, plus written about a double-spaced typed page.

So that's every night + weekend for 7 days. I need to be near a computer that whole time.

1. The essays go as a batch to the 2nd marker. I receive a batch to 2nd mark. As above in terms of time although I'm not required to offer a lengthy comment on every essay.

1. Markers meet to agree marks, or discuss class mark differences. May call in a 3rd marker, or re-read essays. An afternoon's work.

1. Essays back to me as an entire batch. I need to sign every feedback sheet (100 or so) plus double-check entry of marks on marks sheets and essays. I then fill in several forms, certifying that the essays were marked, second marked, and moderated, and what we did in the moderation process to ensure fairness & consistency.

1. Essays back to admin office for them to log marks, and batch for returning to students. A selection of essays is photocopied & sent to the External Examiner. That takes several days, all within the 3 week turnaround.

1. Multiply this by 360 x 2 (ie number of students times number of essays at any one time)

1. This all happens when we're teaching and running usual activities.

So basically, I have a week, in between all my other work (oh & sleep & family etc etc) to mark the essays.

If a colleague is ill, they are generally required not to take sick leave but work through whatever, because otherwise students complain. I had a badly broken arm once, and had complaints that my marking was late taken to my Head of School. No extensions for the professor, because obviously my sling & cast were invisible!

Or we could bring back sudden death exams?

Three weeks does seem very long to me

To mark a 3,000 word essay takes approx 30 mins depending on the standard of work. Most of the modules in my dept have have 80-100 students on them. So each pile of essays involves about 40-50 hours of work. All the essays are marked by two people. So even a conservative estimate would have this as 80 hours of work per assessment. Then add on the time it takes for the office staff to check and process the marks (another couple of hours per assessment, and during examination weeks, they might be dealing with 2-300 different sets of marks).

Add this to the fact that marking is not timetabled in for academics so usually we are still teaching and carrying out research on top of this.

In other words, we need to squeeze in an extra 40-50 hours of work per assessment on top of our normal workloads. And yes, sometimes this does take more than a couple of weeks.

And I'm relatively lucky, some of my colleagues in the Business school have 600 students on their modules....

cross posted

but glad as the point needs to be made.....

And now I really need to leave the office. I've been here since 8am.

Three weeks while I'm still teaching that and other modules, to come up with personal, kind and constrictive feedback which engages with each and every argument in each and every essay, and leave time for me to moderate someone else's marking and someone else to mark mine... No, it's not very long, actually.

I didn't mean it as an attack, it just is a long gap between writing something and getting any feedback. Are your students aware of how the marking process works? It might be helpful for them to understand the constraints you are under.

You both sound as if you are working a great deal harder than my professors many of whom only taught the second and third years, up to two modules a year to groups of not more than 20 students. But of course it was a long time ago and the whole department was far more orientated to research than to undergraduate teaching at he time.

Of course the boring courses were thought to be of huge value by the department head, otherwise they would not have been compulsory. That didn't stop them being incredibly boring (I don't know anyone on my course who enjoyed them) and therefore the students not being very engaged (an earlier complaint).

Your comment about the business course numbers makes me think that they must involve very little tailored teaching - how on earth do they manage seminars etc with that sort of volume? Business courses are generally among the most expensive to take too (thinking post graduate) so I would wonder about value for money.

Nb I know students can be completely crap, I'm really not trying to bash you, just seeing things from another angle.

I've set aside about $100,000 for my two children's higher education (we are in North America) so I know the UK charges very little for courses, on the other hand I will be even more incentivised to make sure that my children get value for money when they go off to university

there is a difference between keeping parents at arms length and a complete refusal to talk to them. Parents should not expect to be involved in every aspect of a students life but they are expected to pick up the consequences of severe problems.

I realised that what bothered me most about this thread was that the persistent emphasis on students being adults and parents having no role discourages students from seeking help when they need it. If universities are providing an education part of that should be encouraging students to accept that when they have a problem there is nothing wrong in saying they need support or in seeking support from their parents.

An adult who finds themselves with a problem they haven't met before will, if they are sensible, seek out advice. That might be from books, the internet (including mumsnet) or other people will more experience. Some adults never develop the degree of maturity required, students are less likely to have developed it. The impression the academics here are giving is that they would not encourage students to seek support from parents when that student needs it.

alreadytaken but there's a huge difference between encouraging students to approach their parents for help and going over the students' heads to notify their parents of problems, or receive calls regarding progress.

Is it because in many cases the parents are footing the bill, so want to make sure their children are attending? I went to university in the very last years it was still free, my parents knew nothing, quite rightly. I have one child off to college in the next few years and I will be on the other side of the world, it will be hard, but it is really none of my business

If a 19-20 year old lived away from their parents and worked would you expect their employer to suggest they discuss problems with their mum?
If a 19-20 year old went to their GP their GP may ask if they had anyone supportive but many people of this age are in relationships and their parents aren't necessarily the first people they'd turn to for support anyway.
If you want to be kept aware of what your adult child is up to then the parents have to keep up a good relationship with them, and have the sort of relationship when they will be consulted.

I have not read the whole thread and think it has moved on. I will return after reading. It is a very interesting point though OP.

Universities are not in loco parentis and short of setting the wheels in motion to have someone sectioned if they have completely fallen apart I'm not sure what else they can do.

Other than 'contact next of kin' moments, no universities should have no contact with parents any more than they would if they were an employer of the adult child.

Interesting comments about communications. I was at university before the mobile phone age & joined the weekly queue with my phone card to make the call home. My parents wouldn't even have known who my lecturers were - whereas of course google now can lead you straight to their email address.

Interesting what people say about preparing your child for independence. Absolutely. My 11 year old will have to travel across the city on two buses next year for school. I'm aware that our circumstances mean that he is less independent/younger for his age than I would like & so I have very purposely put in place a preparation program. It's all baby steps but means that by September he shouldn't have any worries taking the buses by himself & know what to do if things go wrong. As parents surely it's up to us to notice when our children aren't ready & do our best to rectify that.

Also interesting about subject choice. I taught for a while in a retake college & some of the students used to talk to me about parental expectations differing from their own wishes. We really should allow our children to choose their own degrees. One of my friends was forced into a sensible degree when his first love (and talent) was in something not very sensible. He has ended up in the not very sensible area anyway & probably hated his university years. .

I think like in schools the admin is really over the top and out of control. Just let the tutor mark the paper. Have occasional once a year checks they are marking to similar standards of others. Ditch all the other admin listed above which goes into marking a paper.

Horryisupduffed I know that but as I said the emphasis is on not involving parents at all, not on refusing to deal with details that should not be part of the parents role. If the student has abusive parents/ is in a relationship they can appoint someone else as next of kin.

My housemate died whilst I was at university. I didn't hand in a piece of coursework on time because I was busy giving statements to the police which resulted me in getting 20% for the module. I explained the circumstances to the course leader and my work was marked and I was given 80% for the module. I never however, managed to get my faculty to accept the updated mark. My extenuating circumstances request for a further piece of work which I had to complete whilst helping my friend's distraught parents pack up her room was also not accepted. I would have dearly loved my mum to be able to 'communicate' with the university.

It still astonishes me that the death of a university student didn't set anything in motion that ensured those directly affected were helped.

Just to add one point. My DS if he goes to University is likely to be sponsored (this is related to the school he is going to), I expect that his employer will want to know how he is doing on the course they are paying for.
If I am funding the course for my DD, how does it differ that I need to be kept up to date with her progress?

I know lecturers and professors didn't choose how Universities are funded nowadays, but the reality is that parents and students are becoming consumers.