As a parent, do you feel your DC's Uni "should" communicate with you?

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A general question really, I work for a uni and we regularly get complaints from parents that we should have told them stuff.

But, the student is an adult and the contract is between the student and the university, even if parents are paying the fees/living allowance.

In some cases we would be breaking confidentiality by informing parents (e.g. Health issues), in others, I just think it's odd that parents get involved (e.g. student not picked for sports team).

Would appreciate some views/experiences

noddyholder please, please use your influence now as a parent to persuade your DS to take a gap year!

A gap year is a wonderful thing! I really advocate them for any pupil thinking they want to work out what they really want to do.

And rhetorician thanks for saying this:

I do resent deeply the idea that a university education is a commodity like a house or a car. You cannot buy it

I guess I just care too much about students learning rather than getting a degree.

But when a person goes on a day course paid for by their employer, the employer is given feedback which tells them attendance, and sometimes even a mini report. Why is ok for an employer to get feedback, but not parents? Employers claim that it is because they pay their employee, but if parents are paying fees, that's a very similar situation.

I personally think that uni shouldn't contact parents except for extreme health issues, but I also know that every time I go on a course, my employer gets confirmation that I attended. I'm 44 and still get checked on.

But I thought we'd established parents don't have the financial contract with the university, students do?

"Why is ok for an employer to get feedback, but not parents? Employers claim that it is because they pay their employee, but if parents are paying fees, that's a very similar situation"

Oh for goodness sake can you see that it's not even remotely similar. Employees have a CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATION to their employer because they are being paid for services rendered

upthechimney He won't even consider it we have tried. He left the first year of 6th form in one college to go to anther so has in his eyes had the extra year and wants to go with his mates at same stage. Nightmare. He could have had an apprenticeship in his field and earned plus trained but they all want the 3 yr party fest

kissassangel um, because one is specific training which has a direct impact on your capacity to do your job to the highest standard, and the other is education in a series of skills that might later be applied. Or not. If your logic held sway we wouldn't need discipline specific degrees at all, only training. Which I am sure is not what you are advocating.

Ps if university education is to be a commodity then perhaps its practitioners should be paid at levels commensurate with their expertise...

noddy here if you are 23 then you are classed as a mature student and can use different entry routes. Almost all of my best students come this route, they are people who didn't do brilliantly at school (background, inclination, wanted something else in life etc etc) but after a few years of work and travel decide this is what they want and commit to it 100%. They are young adults, with the level of maturity to make things work for them, to use what resources are available, but with the energy and drive to restart their lives. There are students that come in at 18 and thrive, but many more who are adrift, lack purpose and are drop out risks, or don't fulfil their potential. from universities point of view it's a risk though, because a good number of people would discover that they don't need university at all in order to have a fine, productive and happy life. Which is what I will tell my dds when they are big enough to care.

Ps if university education is to be a commodity then perhaps its practitioners should be paid at levels commensurate with their expertise

I have occasionally discussed with students what my university charges for consultancy rates and how different this is from academic pay. They are often extremely shocked at the difference.

I don't do this because I want more money, or think I am worth more than them, but to try to make them understand that the time with me that they take for granted, is there because I believe education is a valuable thing in its own right.

My students thought I got one-term's worth of 9k as my pay. For each of them.

Something that bothers me a bit is, I don't think it's students who're struggling academically who necessarily struggle with things that would require communication, does that seem fair? I can think of a lot of really lovely, mature, sensible people who struggled academically but just got on with it calmly. I can think of people who were academically much stronger but needed a lot of support.

I think because universities are based on education there is a tendency amongst some parents to see them as a seamless continuation of school, and so they act accordingly.

If you imagine an 18 year old moving to the same city as a university, setting themselves up in a flat share and going to work you wouldn't expect to be calling their employer up, or having any contact with their employer whatsoever. To take it further, if you paid them an allowance which they needed in order to take the job (because it was low paid) your financial involvement still wouldn't give you any right (or expectation) to deal directly with their employer. The idea seems laughable.

In that situation no one would be keeping an eye on them at home, and if they were struggling or failing in their work or personal life you would only hear about it if they chose to tell you (or during times when you paid them a visit). .

All that seems perfectly normal, it is a young adult setting out in life with all the risks and responsibilities that entails. Change "employer" to "university" though and for some people it all changes and instead of being an adult they remain a child. There is a definite difference in perception at work.

I think the one size fits all conveyor belt style education system has created this. Because even the teens themselves see it as an extension of school and the 'next thing'. They expect a lot of parental input as that is what they are used to. I listen in on many late night convos of my son and his mates and they really do sound like they would be better off getting jobs (ha) as I haven't heard any of them sound enthused by the courses etc just the lifestyle . And 2 of his closest friends have teachers as parents and they are the worst offenders!

I think bringing finance into it (parents pay so they deserve to be involved, or at least to know) is a red herring. I had a lot of friends who went to Uni straight from school - gap years were unheard of 30 years ago), parents still had to top up grants, sometimes by quite a lot. For instance, my bf's dad was paying 300 a month to her way back then for rent, food, books etc. Her grant was tiny.

At no point did her parents even have the option to contact any University staff, and they wouldn't have tried either.

In those days, you just had to believe in your children's ability to make relatively sensible choices and trust them to do so.

In those days you had prepared the child for making sensible choices- you wouldn't have doubted that they could get on a train and go off to an open day on their own.
I think that all parents just understood that it was their DC who was going and they wouldn't be involved.
They also couldn't get in touch. I wrote letters, occasionally I found a phone box and if they tried to phone me it was hit and miss as to whether anyone answered the phone in the hall and shouted loud enough- if I was in in the first place.

I hope that parents realise that banks are the same- they won't tell you anything so you have no idea of the state of their finances- bar what they choose to tell you. Even when my DS wanted me to sort out a problem at my end I couldn't because it was his account.

Remember as well that here in Scotland, young people can go to uni at 16 (as I did). DS is thinking of going in Sept - depending on his results - but he won't be 17 till November. I'm trying to persuade him to do another year at school.

But regardless, I still don't think I, as a parent, should expect any communication from my child's university - unless, as someone said, they are unable to call; unconscious, jailed, sectioned or hospitalised.

If you imagine an 18 year old moving to the same city as a university, setting themselves up in a flat share and going to work you wouldn't expect to be calling their employer up, or having any contact with their employer whatsoever

But you might have a formal relationship with your DC's landlord, for example, as garantor.

So the analogy might be that parents of undergraduates should help where they can" in helping with accommodation maybe? But not the actual work.

I doubt the landlord will care any more beyond whether or not rent is being paid and the house hasn't been trashed. Not likely to call mummy if they suspect little johnnie isn't going to lectures

Btw, I am just putting the pov of a paying parent across, one that my aunt voiced when my 17 yr old cousin did a vocational course, sometimes alongside those going for one day a week training. The college refused point blank to talk to her, but she knew those with employers had termly reports sent back.

I didn't agree with her.

I think the problem is, that we all like to think that there is 'someone in charge' for when things go wrong. But let's face it, there isn't. As adults we have to accept that we are in charge and the responsibility lies with us.somehow we want a person or group to turn to, and often there isn't. whether it's the student or the parent, that can be hard to deal with. Even harder when there are health issues or a serious concern (eg crime victims) that doesn't appear to be dealt with.

For most people it is a good thing to realize that ultimately it is all down to you, and I really believe that uni should have the same level of involvement that an employer would. There are still a lot of people who start work age 16 and we wouldn't expect work to contact family except in a dire need to alert next of kin situation. The same should go for the uni. The student union would maybe be more involved.

For those with long term health issues, there should be adequate support from the medical profession. But I remember that we were strongly discouraged from going to the doctor (by the doctor themself) and would be very worried for my child in those circumstances.

Fwiw, my dd has special needs and we may well have to choose a local uni so she can stay at home for at least a year to two. I would prefer that she be independent at that age, but it may not be an option for us.

This is a really interesting thread and debate.
There is a difference between pastoral care and academic tuition/guidance. Though pastoral care can be vital, it is not something I would see a university essentially providing, it is desirable, not an essential. I'm amazed any parent would expect a tutor to be responsible in any way for the mental health care of a student. At best a tutor can advise a student to go to the GP, but that's about it in my opinion.
But is a university education a commodity?

Well I never thought I would ever say this, but on many levels a university education is a commodity, paid for out of family and public money. Furthermore it is an expensive commodity.

Therefore the quality of the education (content, contact time, feedback on work submitted, marking, warning in good time of potential failure to progress) needs to be transparent and accountable. Definitely accountable to the student, and to the public. And, yes, ultimately, therefore, to parents.

I realise that some university educations are priceless and others are invaluable, but there must be high standards. Student unions are cowed down these days due to needing references for the dwindling job market. I sympathise with all the hard working tutors on this thread, but giving education is not only a very important responsibility it is a job for which tutors should be accountable to the students, treating the students as the adults they are. (I want to reiterate that I have no complaints at all about my DC's education at uni, and nothing but the highest of praise for their tutors).

I think that the problem lies in the fact that the world sees an 18yr old as an adult, and all institutions will treat them as adults, and yet the parent stills sees them as a child and expects to be consulted.
You wonder when this stops- if someone sees that a 25yr old isn't coping are they expected to ring the mother? What about a 30yr old? Would they like it? I would assume that if they wanted the parent to know they would have contacted them.
If I wanted to help a 25yr old or a 30yr old I would try and signpost them to the right place.
I can't see that an 18yr old is different, except that I might start by saying 'have you told your parents' or 'don't you think it would be best to tell your parents?' but if they refuse I really can't go over their heads and call the parents and tell them. Apart from the breach of confidentiality and trust I can't know if the parents would be supportive or make the problem worse.
I suspect that a lot of problems are caused by parental expectation in the first place and they simply are not up to admitting failure. How do you manage to say, if you got into a top university and know your parents are really proud, and expecting a good degree, that you are not coping or you are on the wrong course or in the wrong place?
Some parents seem to have it all mapped out at birth- if you have your heart set on being a gardener and your parents want a doctor it must be very difficult.
If you think your DC is immature or they don't really know what they want to do it would be much better to take a year out and go later - if they still want to. All the students that I know that go slightly later are really motivated- they have tried work and want to be better qualified.

What makes you think we are not accountable already? For each module I teach (either a sixth or a quarter of the 120 credit points each undergrad studies each year) I am required to:

• have all my marking sample marked (around 25% of essays blind 2nd marked)
• have my range of marks for each assessment moderated by the second marker *submit a formal record of this moderation to the External Examiner
• have the External Examiner also sample read/check/moderate my marking
• submit my teaching to a student course evaluation
• demonstrate to both students and my Faculty how I have acted on student feedback; or why I haven't acted Final Year students then complete the NSS National Student Satisfaction survey (although statistician/social scientist colleagues are clear that it's an extremely badly designed* questionnaire I'm not an expert, but even I can see that). The NSS is used in league tables, so we build bad statistics on bad science.

So that's the internal accountability, moving to external via the NSS.

All documentation to do with my teaching is available to the public under FoI

Externally every university unit/department plus Faculties/Schools/Colleges (whichever organisational model they have) are submitted for external review under the Quality Assurance Authority (QAA) every 5 years. I've been both a senior external on several of these, as well as fronting up my own Department's reviews.

That's the teaching.

Then there's the Research Excellence Framework, preparation for which is currently occupying about 50% of my time (hence posting in here today as it's just such a god-awful job), and indeed in many universities is responsible for employing many people, simply to manage the systems and the paperwork. That is a national, compulsory assessment every 5 to 7 years of the quality of our individual and collective research. If I actually calculated how much the REF is costing nationally, and how much it's not actually about the real research we do, well, ... I'd probably be much grumpier than I am already.

The paperwork, submission, and results of the last REF/RAE are available for anyone to read.

The latest thing is, that any research I do on public money (so not a lot of it which is done in my "spare time" on the weekends) must be made available on "Open Access" to anyone in the world,via me (or my university) paying the publisher to make my publications available for free, or me submitting everything I publish to my university's Open Access database, so it's available internationally, for free or I pay for it to be free to you).

Accountable enough?

Well said Chinmey.

• Chimney

Plus I think all universities have internal appeal procedures for students who are unhappy with grades. Significantly, take up is pretty low in our place, and mostly relate to procedural issues.

The research excellence framework has little bearing on the quality of teaching to undergraduates.
There is not equity across departments or across universities as to the quality of teaching or accountability of tutors.