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Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"

347 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 15/08/2016 10:03

I have been vegan for almost nine years. My four-year-old daughter has eaten a plant-based diet since birth (yes, breast milk is vegan) and my second baby, due shortly, will be joining her. It was never something we questioned. We knew that children could grow up strong and healthy on a vegan diet, so why would we introduce foods we wouldn't eat ourselves? My grandma thinks it's a shame she's never tasted a pork sausage, but other than that our choice hasn't attracted much criticism.

Last week, however, an Italian politician proposed a law that would allow the state to prosecute parents who choose to raise their children vegan. The proposed law has come about after a number of high-profile cases of severe malnourishment as a result of parents imposing inadequate vegan diets, and has opened up a debate about whether it's ok to raise children on a vegan diet.

A vegan diet needn't be restrictive. While veganism means avoiding animal products - cheese, meat, gelatine, to name but a few - a rich and varied diet is easily achievable. My daughter eats fruits and vegetables, lentils, tofu, grains, beans and nuts, cereals fortified with vitamins and she also takes a daily multivitamin specially formulated for vegan children. However, she can also hold her own when it comes to chocolate, chips, ice cream and all the other junk foods four-year-olds love to eat. I don’t want her to miss out, so I plan ahead for birthday parties or nursery celebrations so she can have sweets and cake with the rest of the children. She might grow up and decide she doesn't want to be vegan any more, but I don't want that to be because she felt left out growing up.

The NHS says that a vegan diet is fine for babies and children as long as it includes all of the necessary vitamins and minerals. The vegan parents I know are clued up when it comes to nutrition. I think being vegan actually encourages parents to be more critical of their family's diet than they may otherwise be - and that can only be a good thing.

Perhaps, instead of looking to prosecute vegan parents, it would be better for Italy to introduce measures to educate all parents about the importance of a varied diet in childhood. Italy has one of the highest rates of childhood obesity in the world - it’s clear that there's a pervasive lack of understanding about nutrition. Rather than vilifying all vegan parents for the mistakes of a few, resources would be better used educating people about how to achieve a healthy diet - whether this includes animal products or not.

I went vegan after years of being vegetarian. I found out about the cruelty involved in the dairy industry and decided to take the next step to reduce animal suffering. For me, veganism has always been about animal exploitation. The health and environmental benefits of the lifestyle are a bonus, but they're not the reason I choose to be vegan. I am raising my daughter to consider the needs of other people and animals when making decisions. She may not always be vegan. She might grow up and decide she loves beef burgers. I have no idea what the future holds, just like other parents don't know if their children will grow up to embrace the family's love of the outdoors, jazz music or the Labour Party. All I can do is try to teach her compassion now and hope that it sticks. And if it doesn't? Well, she's my daughter and I will love her unconditionally, no matter what.

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CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 13:12

Whatever "write up medical literature" means, it doesn't sound like you are actually aware of the very widely and conclusively established differences in cognitive ability, depth of thought etc between humans and chicken, for example.

I'm sorry you feel it to be patronizing but this is simple observation.

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 13:21

Writing up medical literature means that I take the results of clinical trials and turn them into published scientific articles.

I am aware of the studies you refer to, and I understand what they are measuring. However, I don't think that brain functionality is directly proportional to your worth as a living being. If you have a human who has exactly the same mental capabilities as a cow, are they relegated to cattle class in your eyes? I'm guessing no. Why is that?

Your implication that I only read vegan websites is patronising, and also wrong.

lljkk · 18/08/2016 13:31

paperdoll's meal plan made me laugh.

Why eat so many fake animal products? If I were vegan, I'd be against them all on principle because they perpetuate the idea that milk-cream-cheese-sausage-shepherds pie etc. are normal & maybe essential. Or perpetuate the idea that vegans must have animal product substitutes. Which is obviously silly. Eating those fake animal products would make me complicit in the cultural value system that says those foods are what one must eat.

Anyway, I always think Vegans are moral losers compared to Jains. How immoral of humans to take the life of a carrot.

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 13:36

lljkk my (meat-eating) DH agrees with you! So do I, tbh - every ersatz substitute I've tested has been a bit rank. As you say, they imitate the current vegan's past eating habits. That can be quite soothing though when you've had a long day and just want something brainless that is very like your old comfort food.

I tend to steer towards the lentils and plain tofu side - tofu has been around for thousands of years so I think it deserves its own status now and to not be merely dismissed as a substitute Grin

I work with a woman whose birth family is Jain and she says I'd fit right in (!!)

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 14:58

"I don't think that brain functionality is directly proportional to your worth as a living being"

But you do, since you eat plants who are also living beings. You have decided that they are not worth as much as animals.

I would suggest that you look into how plants communicate & warn each other against danger and implement defence mechanisms, but you would call that patronising because, apparently, people who contribute to editing scientific articles know everything Hmm

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 15:07

Oh dear. Turned into the "plants have feelings too" crap.
Perhaps they do. But how many plants are consumed by the cows/sheep/chickens to turn then into steak/chops/nuggets? Compared to the vegan eating the plants directly, far fewer plants have to suffer.

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 15:11

Vegan versions of meaty products exist because some people like the taste of meat, but not the cruelty. They like the taste or texture but not the impact on the planet. They like the taste and convenience of eating a round shaped thing in a bun. We don't use them much, but when we do, they are just an added little something to a stirfry or curry. If you can eat a healthier version of something, which saves animals, AND means you are leaving a better planet for our children, why wouldn't you?

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 15:13

.

Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"
LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 15:15

Cote well, I have to eat something Grin and I've chosen to eat the living things which do not appear to feel pain in a way that I can empathise with. Selfish, I know, but there it is. I have actually looked at articles on plant pain before and they're pretty interesting!

I certainly don't know everything, but I know better than to trust highly partisan vegan websites as my only source of information.

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 15:16

I'm liking the memes Redlarva Grin

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 15:20

Contessa, I keep a stock of them at the ready. The non-vegans are always spewing the same old crap, aren't they!

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 15:24

"Turned into the "plants have feelings too" crap."

No sillier than "chickens have feelings too so can't be eaten" crap.

"But how many plants are consumed by the cows/sheep/chickens to turn then into steak/chops/nuggets?"

So you would rather NOT let those cows/sheep/chickens live at all? Because they eat plants? I thought you LIKED animals.

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 15:26

What is your problem with eating eggs, anyway? It's not even the fetus of a chick. It is an egg, which chicken lay everywhere out of their own free will and will continue to do so regardless of whether they get eaten or not.

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 15:29

"Cote well, I have to eat something"

Good, and so do I.

The difference is that I am comfortable with my place in the food chain whereas you are choosing to subsist on a suboptimal, self-imposed, restricted diet that probably has very little semblance to the one your ancestors had.

Which is fine. To each their own and all that.

Until the day I get called a psychopath who destroys motherhood, in which case I feel obliged to point out the inconsistencies and errors in some people's religion.

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 15:44

Bit confused by the ancestors comment. Should I be trying to emulate my ancestors? Their world was a different one to mine, in terms of safety/population density/food availability; we don't necessarily need identical diets. In this century, I can get everything I need from non-animal sources. I am very grateful for this and see no need to emulate my ancestors if I don't actually have to.

It's understandable that you weren't impressed by the psychopath/motherhood comments, but sniping back in response is hardly a dignified reaction.

WRT eggs, I must admit they are the least objectionable of the animal-derived foods to me. It's the way the birds are kept that prevents me from eating them, not the items themselves.

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 15:45

Cote, I don't keep chickens, but all the people who I know that do, say that they have feelings. Most have stopped eating chickens. I'll repeat my earlier point for you. Pretend that they don't have feelings. They definitely feel pain. So I'd rather choose to not be the cause of any more pain than I have to be.

A bird's eggs do not belong to us, they belong to the birds. Laying eggs takes a toll on a chicken's body. They naturally will slow down production if we stop taking them. As a vegan, I respect that animal's right to their bodies and their bodily secretions. I don't expect you to understand that. I also do not believe eggs are healthy for us.

I didn't call you a psychopath.
I did link to the article about non-vegans destroying motherhood, and I stand by it. You do. Cows. sheeps, pigs - they all want to keep their babies close to them, nurse them, clean them, snuggle them. You take that away from them by your choices. It is what it is.

The vegan diet is not the sub-optimal one. Do be a little open-minded and watch Dr.Greger of NutritionFacts. Fb page

I don't actually especially like non-human animals. I just respect their right to life. Yes, some will get eaten by lions, fair dos. Humans do not have to be a part of that. We are better than lions, are we not?

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 15:49

So you would rather NOT let those cows/sheep/chickens live at all?
Correct. I would very much rather they were not born. It would be better for the planet, and it would be better for that animal to live a short while (MUCH shorter than their natural lifespans) and then get a knife in their throat.

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 16:07

"They definitely feel pain. So I'd rather choose to not be the cause of any more pain than I have to be."

It's possible to kill painlessly these days.

"They (chicken) naturally will slow down production if we stop taking them."

No they don't. Freely roaming chickens lay their eggs everywhere without a thought for whether they are collected or not.

"I also do not believe eggs are healthy for us."

So your beliefs say that WebMD is wrong in this article titled Good Eggs: For Nutrition, They're Hard to Beat? Do your beliefs say that the NHS is wrong?

"didn't call you a psychopath"

Judey did. Not just me but all omnivores.

"I did link to the article about non-vegans destroying motherhood, and I stand by it."

Inflammatory rubbish. To "destroy motherhood", I would have to prevent female animals if all species including humans from getting pregnant and giving birth to their young. You can anthropomorphize all you like but lifelong feelings and attachment of "motherhood" in the human sense is not something you see often in the animal kingdom, where typically the female forgets about her offspring after a short while.

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 16:09

"We are better than lions, are we not?"

Ah but apparently we are not! Doesn't your religion say that we are no better than animals so their lives are as important as ours?

You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 16:19

:Cote to your restricted comment.

Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"
Thequilltosurvive · 18/08/2016 16:23
Grin

This is lighthearted people; don't rip my head off although I'm sure it's against vegan principles anyway. I have a vegan friend who's entire Instagram feed is full of pictures of cows with slogans like 'friends not food' so I'm a little sick of having veganism rammed down my throat, as it were. I look at dietary choices like religion: live and let live - just don't try to force your own values onto me. I'll make my own mind up thanks.

Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"
judey · 18/08/2016 16:23

It's a real shame that people so full of their own opinions can't take the time to read posts properly. Was it really that difficult to understand?
I didn't call all meat eaters psychopaths (although clearly given the comments on here, some are). I said that I can't understand how people (unless they are psychopaths) can cause so much suffering and death. I gave other possible reasons such as conformity, fear, lack of moral reasoning etc. but they seem to have been ignored. A bit challenging for some of you, perhaps. Also, very importantly given the stigma attached to mental health, psychopathy and psychosis are not the same thing. Psychosis is a mental illness. It has nothing to do with a lack of empathy. Shame on your ignorance. Speaking of ignorance, I see we've now gone down the food chain argument. So predictable.

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 16:27

Veganism is not a religion.
There is no pope type dude or bible written 2000 years ago telling us that non-human animals are as important as humans. I have already stated my position on this upthread, which is that they are not equal to us, imo.
We are better than non-human animals in many ways, and worse in many too. We are different. A lion doesn't have access to the vast variety of foods that humans do. It is natural for them to hunt, and kill with their teeth and claws. Humans can easily choose to not hurt other animals.

So whilst they are not our equals, I do believe we owe them our care, our empathy and our guardianship. We should be looking after creatures lesser than ourselves, not dominating them, abusing them, and hurting them.

"Motherhood is destroyed" when that animal does not get a chance to mother their child; not when they are denied the right to have a child in the first place. But methinks you knew this was the point and are just being goady.