Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"

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I have been vegan for almost nine years. My four-year-old daughter has eaten a plant-based diet since birth (yes, breast milk is vegan) and my second baby, due shortly, will be joining her. It was never something we questioned. We knew that children could grow up strong and healthy on a vegan diet, so why would we introduce foods we wouldn't eat ourselves? My grandma thinks it's a shame she's never tasted a pork sausage, but other than that our choice hasn't attracted much criticism.

Last week, however, an Italian politician proposed a law that would allow the state to prosecute parents who choose to raise their children vegan. The proposed law has come about after a number of high-profile cases of severe malnourishment as a result of parents imposing inadequate vegan diets, and has opened up a debate about whether it's ok to raise children on a vegan diet.

A vegan diet needn't be restrictive. While veganism means avoiding animal products - cheese, meat, gelatine, to name but a few - a rich and varied diet is easily achievable. My daughter eats fruits and vegetables, lentils, tofu, grains, beans and nuts, cereals fortified with vitamins and she also takes a daily multivitamin specially formulated for vegan children. However, she can also hold her own when it comes to chocolate, chips, ice cream and all the other junk foods four-year-olds love to eat. I don’t want her to miss out, so I plan ahead for birthday parties or nursery celebrations so she can have sweets and cake with the rest of the children. She might grow up and decide she doesn't want to be vegan any more, but I don't want that to be because she felt left out growing up.

The NHS says that a vegan diet is fine for babies and children as long as it includes all of the necessary vitamins and minerals. The vegan parents I know are clued up when it comes to nutrition. I think being vegan actually encourages parents to be more critical of their family's diet than they may otherwise be - and that can only be a good thing.

Perhaps, instead of looking to prosecute vegan parents, it would be better for Italy to introduce measures to educate all parents about the importance of a varied diet in childhood. Italy has one of the highest rates of childhood obesity in the world - it’s clear that there's a pervasive lack of understanding about nutrition. Rather than vilifying all vegan parents for the mistakes of a few, resources would be better used educating people about how to achieve a healthy diet - whether this includes animal products or not.

I went vegan after years of being vegetarian. I found out about the cruelty involved in the dairy industry and decided to take the next step to reduce animal suffering. For me, veganism has always been about animal exploitation. The health and environmental benefits of the lifestyle are a bonus, but they're not the reason I choose to be vegan. I am raising my daughter to consider the needs of other people and animals when making decisions. She may not always be vegan. She might grow up and decide she loves beef burgers. I have no idea what the future holds, just like other parents don't know if their children will grow up to embrace the family's love of the outdoors, jazz music or the Labour Party. All I can do is try to teach her compassion now and hope that it sticks. And if it doesn't? Well, she's my daughter and I will love her unconditionally, no matter what.

Also for quill:

Now, what were you saying about live and let live? Are you letting animals live?

thequill oh, I think a lot of vegans would happily suspend their principles for the satisfaction of smacking a particularly obstreperous meat-eater upside the head

FB/Instagram campaigning is a waste of time IMO; it only alienates anyone who doesn't already agree with you. I prefer to just get on with it. A lot of omnivore friends deliberately raise the topic because they're interested, which is great. I don't stop them eating meat, they don't give me grief for choosing differently to them. It's all good.

Cote, the NHS are a bit behind, yes.
More up-to-date medical knowledge is available. See NutritionFacts as posted previously, or www.facebook.com/PCRM.org/?fref=ts&rf=135304626490385 for starters. Lots more supporting my stance if you care to look. Which I know you don't, so I'll bow out of this thread.

Posted too early! I meant to say that the softly softly approach generally does better than a more confrontational one, IME. Slower though, admittedly.

Hermione. You'd eat a dog. You hang out in slaughterhouses (it clearly didn't bother you). You use mental illness as a joke insult. Wow.

I think you may have answered my question. Clearly you don't represent all meat eaters, so I am still interested in how decent people justify all the killing and suffering for something that they don't need to survive.

.
Though I do actually also share in the hope to change people's minds, but a lot of the time it is planting seeds, hoping that those who are open-minded, or are considering it, know it is possible, that there are others around for support, that they know my stance and can come to me for advice etc. I don't share for people like Cote who I know won't budge. Some people won't care, and nothing you can say can change their minds. Most will though, and I do believe we are moving towards a vegan world.
Peace. I'm outta here.

Oops, I can't stop!

But Cont, how is that slowly slowly approach working with your own immediate family?!

I took a slowly slowly approach with my DH when we met and it worked very well. He was rampantly carnivorous and was adamant he could never give up meat. I quietly prepared pretty fucking amazing vegetarian and vegan meals, obligingly providing him with his required meat a few times a week. When asked, I very non-confrontationally explained my reasons for not eating meat or wearing leather/silk/pearls but stated I would never impose my beliefs on others. Then quietly watched television programmes containing animal slaughter in his presence. One Christmas, Jamie Oliver slaughtered a lamb and Gordon Ramsay electrocuted a turkey. He's been vegetarian ever since

Redlarva well, DS1 (5yo) occasionally talks about the animals which are sad in cages and says he doesn't want them to be there; he also does not care for any sign that the meat he is eating came from an actual living animal - just like me at his age! I have hopes of the boy DS2 (4yo) OTOH holds up handfuls of ham and says 'Is this from a pig's body?' and waits for confirmation before devouring it. I take comfort from the fact that at least he's making an informed choice....

DH is my main triumph though. He is a rampant meat-eater, but pays far more attention to welfare nowadays than he ever has before. In fact we went to the WinterWonderland in Hyde Park last year and he looked around before sadly saying 'I want a hot dog, but they'll all have come from really uhappy pigs.' reader, I married him.

I think that within the circle of my birth family, friend group and work colleagues, the mere fact that I've stuck with it for so long is beginning to make them think seriously about WHY I'm doing it, which is great too. But they are all profoundly resistant to any form of 'advertising' along the lines of memes, so I carefully don't do any of that.

LaContessa

DS1 (4yo) eats ham while loudly proclaiming, 'Mmmm! I LOVE dead pig!'

I'm sure he's being provocative for the benefit of his hippy parents.

Too easy

I'll say it again: you do your thing, I'll do mine. I just think it's worth noting that a person who is self-righteous about their choices - whatever they are - tends to do more harm to their cause than good by getting people's backs up.

Anyway... I'm off to make a bacon butty. The meat comes from pigs raised locally by my friend. We buy 1/4 of an animal, ready butchered, at a time. I've seen where they live and it's a pleasant environment. Obviously they are slaughtered at the end of it - I'm not pretending this is an act of kindness - but until that point they are quite literally as happy as pigs in shit.

thequill that does sound like a better-than-average life for Mr Pig, and I agree with you about self-righteousness being off-putting.

Elphaba these damn hippy parents! My DC gaze at me thoughtfully every so often and grill me on what I will eat. Vegan sausage, vegan milk, vegan pancakes.... trouble is, I'm not sure they understand what vegan is oh well, all things in time!!

Yeah the way to change people's minds is to insult them and constantly post hyperbolic memes. Fucking hell, some of you must like animals so much because no human wants anything to do with you.

Have you thought about turning that last sentence into your own hyperbolic meme, Hero?

Such a shame this discussion has descended.
It's a difficult line to tread as a vegan as if you feel strongly about something on ethical grounds, and something seems so clear cut to you, you obviously can feel a need to "spread the word". But after about ten years of being vegan, my view is, like some other posters here, that you probably do have more impact with the actions-speak-louder-than-words approach (while being ready to discuss it when people ask you interested questions of course). People who are not open to it are not going to change if you ram it down their throats.

I am rudely healthy, certainly not puny, have had two healthy pregnancies and two healthy children. I don't look like the traditional image of a vegan by any means (before kids I worked as a lawyer in the City and looked like everyone else around me but my heels were vegan and my pearls were plastic). And I do think over the years my just being vegan has helped to normalise the concept in the minds of the many different people I've come into contact with. I became veggie when I was 8 and at that time it was considered a most peculiar thing to do - and look how things have changed on that front.
Please let's all try to be a bit politer to each other, and a bit more open minded.
Oh and to go back to the original post, the proposed Italiam law makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I agree with Nowabruptly in the lead by example.

I shared an office with a vegan for 10 years, never once saw her eat a piece of fruit or a vegetable- lots of flapjacks and carbs.
Food seemed to be a source of misery for her. She continually tried to convert us, tell us how we could change our lunch vegan (vegan ham), would bring in these inedible chocolate cupcakes on special occasions and tell us they were just the same as real ones (we used to call them mocalate after that episode of Friends) and complain about the lack of fake meat products. She could tell you where all your vitamins etc should come from, just not in practice.
I think if I had seen her eat tasty interesting food, I might not have converted but might have rethought some meals.
Her veganism was like a hair shirt, wearing it l ike a punishment - and shouldn't food be fun?

She has children now, also vegan, dread to think what they eat.

I equally dislike many of my vegetarian friends ( I was veggie for years) who live off a pasta/cheese diet. The ones who are most vocal always seems to be the ones who eat the worst diet.

I have a lifelong vegetarian friend, her children are all vegetarian, I find her quite inspiring (she's an imaginative cook) - she's never said anything about what others eat, is always there with advice though.

I agree, we all know that one vegan. I knew one who was a picture of unhealth. She could have had a really good diet if she ditched the nasty processed fake junk and learned to cook.

I have a very close friend who is a vegan. She can cook great food. She doesn't try to convert me because she has been to my house and knows we just don't have enough access to a wide enough range of foods to be vegan. She went veggie while she stayed here, although she didn't drink the milk or eat cheese, only the eggs. A lot of people in a lot of climates do rely on meat and dairy for their diet, not everyone in the world can follow the vegan model. If I were to go back to the UK and when I am in the UK I am very concious about what I eat. The one person that inspired me more than anything in this was my vegan friend. She has a great outlook and is very aware of the world around her. But equally she has thought more about where her food comes from and has started to source her food locally since she stayed on our farm.

It's great to be vegan if you live in the developed world and can access food on tap but that may not be all that environmentally friendly. If you consider that the wide enough diet needs to rack up heafty air miles and a lot of fruit, vegetables and pulses are less regulated than meat and grown in intense agricultural environments, sometimes in countries with very lapse environmental laws or inadequate protection of the natural environment, especially the wildlife.
I personally think people who source their food locally are much greener, even if that locally sourced food includes meat and dairy. Those who manage to do that and remain vegan are light years ahead of the rest of us!

Back when I ate meat, I had that one vegetarian friend who subsisted on cheesy chips and then complained about how hard it was to lose weight. I was a bit I have to say.

I agree that sourcing local food is a good idea whatever your diet; I deliberately don't buy quinoa or food containing non-sustainable palm oil due to environmental concerns. I do drink soy milk, which DH had a pop at me for the other day; soy is an environmental disaster area but 90% of it goes into animal feed, so I can't bring myself to feel that guilty about my share of its impact. Maybe I should switch to oat 'milk' or similar though.

The thing that I find tedious about veganism occasionally is that for me, it's a symptom of starting to think about where EVERYTHING in my life comes from. Once you start thinking about it, there are human rights/animal rights infringements everywhere you look and it becomes terribly dispiriting. If you try to make a difference on one issue then you're mocked/berated for not helping with all the others - a friend asked me the other day (and I'm not sure she was joking) why I didn't focus my energy on human rights issues rather than the piggy-wiggies. It passed off as a joke but there was something about it.... anyway I explained how I try to avoid the usual sweatshops (Primark, B&M etc) and she seemed taken aback that I actually thought human rights were important too

Anyway, I am rambling. Think about what you're eating and try to buy local/ethical. That's as much as you can do, for any chosen diet.

It's great to be vegan if you live in the developed world and can access food on tap but that may not be all that environmentally friendly. If you consider that the wide enough diet needs to rack up heafty air miles and a lot of fruit, vegetables and pulses are less regulated than meat and grown in intense agricultural environments, sometimes in countries with very lapse environmental laws or inadequate protection of the natural environment, especially the wildlife. Yes dizzy I agree.

One problem I find is morals cost more
Not buying primark etc
Buying eco friendly cleaning stuff
Buying ethically sourced anything costs more (with good reason)
i do what I can but I also have a tight budget to stick to.

Omnivore is your choice, but not your childrens'

i don't see any think wrong with a vegan life style but one as monitor the child as there have been a few high profile cases were things have gone wrong the one I remember was a 12 year old girl who was raised on a strict vegan diet and was admitted to the Royal Hospital for Sick Children in Glasgow, Scotland, suffering from a severe form of rickets and her bones had become that of a 80 year old so regular health checks are need to be put in place and ones doctor told of ones actions

I respect your decision to go vegan, but PLEASE have a look at this barnstorming presentation by nutritionist Sally Fallon. It's of particular relevance to those who may be vulnerable to osteoporosis in later life. Very very interesting in how it shows how peoples less infected with modern diets are much less vulnerable to things like tooth decay eg remote Scottish highlanders, aboriginals, native americans:

I would far rather we took action against parents who feed their kids absolute shite, to be honest.

That said, Vit B12 deficiency is a real risk and personally, I think a diet should not require supplements. What about vegan with organic eggs?!

Hmmm...
Firstly, I HOPE the Italian politician was misquoted?!
Surely it would be FAR BETTER to bring in a law that says parents have to answer for nutrition in general, rather than taking tge stance that , someone feeding their child a vegan diet is restricting their nourishment, and therefore painting a picture that people that don't opt for a vegan diet MUST be doing the right thing by their child's diet at all times?! How narrow minded is that!
I'm not keen on red meat or poultry, i eat fish mostly , my son has the same preferences but that's not through lack of trying to feed him meat, he genuinely like myself prefers fish.
I think the OPs remarks about the dairy industry's exploitation of animals is a bit obtuse , I make sure the dairy I get is of and ethical standard. And also the remark that began parents are more critical of their children's diets and clues up on nutrition, I find that rather obnoxious. You don't have to be a meat eater to ensure your children are properly nourished but you sure as hell don't need to be a vegan to be critical and clued up on your families diet.
How about nutrition on the whole becomes the priority where children are concerned, and irrespective of what diet any given family follows, having a healthy, happy well nourished child is what's important.