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Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"

347 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 15/08/2016 10:03

I have been vegan for almost nine years. My four-year-old daughter has eaten a plant-based diet since birth (yes, breast milk is vegan) and my second baby, due shortly, will be joining her. It was never something we questioned. We knew that children could grow up strong and healthy on a vegan diet, so why would we introduce foods we wouldn't eat ourselves? My grandma thinks it's a shame she's never tasted a pork sausage, but other than that our choice hasn't attracted much criticism.

Last week, however, an Italian politician proposed a law that would allow the state to prosecute parents who choose to raise their children vegan. The proposed law has come about after a number of high-profile cases of severe malnourishment as a result of parents imposing inadequate vegan diets, and has opened up a debate about whether it's ok to raise children on a vegan diet.

A vegan diet needn't be restrictive. While veganism means avoiding animal products - cheese, meat, gelatine, to name but a few - a rich and varied diet is easily achievable. My daughter eats fruits and vegetables, lentils, tofu, grains, beans and nuts, cereals fortified with vitamins and she also takes a daily multivitamin specially formulated for vegan children. However, she can also hold her own when it comes to chocolate, chips, ice cream and all the other junk foods four-year-olds love to eat. I don’t want her to miss out, so I plan ahead for birthday parties or nursery celebrations so she can have sweets and cake with the rest of the children. She might grow up and decide she doesn't want to be vegan any more, but I don't want that to be because she felt left out growing up.

The NHS says that a vegan diet is fine for babies and children as long as it includes all of the necessary vitamins and minerals. The vegan parents I know are clued up when it comes to nutrition. I think being vegan actually encourages parents to be more critical of their family's diet than they may otherwise be - and that can only be a good thing.

Perhaps, instead of looking to prosecute vegan parents, it would be better for Italy to introduce measures to educate all parents about the importance of a varied diet in childhood. Italy has one of the highest rates of childhood obesity in the world - it’s clear that there's a pervasive lack of understanding about nutrition. Rather than vilifying all vegan parents for the mistakes of a few, resources would be better used educating people about how to achieve a healthy diet - whether this includes animal products or not.

I went vegan after years of being vegetarian. I found out about the cruelty involved in the dairy industry and decided to take the next step to reduce animal suffering. For me, veganism has always been about animal exploitation. The health and environmental benefits of the lifestyle are a bonus, but they're not the reason I choose to be vegan. I am raising my daughter to consider the needs of other people and animals when making decisions. She may not always be vegan. She might grow up and decide she loves beef burgers. I have no idea what the future holds, just like other parents don't know if their children will grow up to embrace the family's love of the outdoors, jazz music or the Labour Party. All I can do is try to teach her compassion now and hope that it sticks. And if it doesn't? Well, she's my daughter and I will love her unconditionally, no matter what.

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RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 11:23

LaCont. Of course the majority of flesh-eaters SAY they are buying high-welfare (oxymoron) meat. The figures show that the majority are still buying cheap meat.
And anyway, the end is the same at the slaughterhouse - or are your high-welfare animals killed nicely, with a fluffy knife?

www.theonion.com/blogpost/we-raise-all-our-beef-humanely-on-open-pasture-and-30983

I do not do welfarism. It merely promotes the use of animals as food. Better we change people's minds - that animals are not ours to abuse in this way. We do not need meat or dairy to survive. To continue to consume animals is therefore either ignorance or apathy, and greed.

I can understand if your DH and DC are not vegan, that you need ways to make their habits seem less horrific to you. Shame for the animals though, their health, and the planet.

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 11:24

.

Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"
RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 11:38

And "high-welfare" or not, non-veganism still destroys motherhood.

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 11:42

Flesh eaters destroy motherhood Grin

Ffs get over yourself.

Dozer · 18/08/2016 11:58

Non veganism destroys motherhood?!

Dozer · 18/08/2016 11:59

Oh, for the animals!

MyNightWithMaud · 18/08/2016 11:59

Oh crumbs. I'm all for freedom of choice and informed debate but name-calling - whether it's calling vegans cranks or carnists psychopaths - doesn't help the debate and suggests that the namecallers can't muster any better arguments for their stance.

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 12:02

Redlarva I'm making the best of my situation, it's true. I know that at the end of the day the cow will still be killed, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't do my best to improve conditions for the cow if I can.

The destroying motherhood link explains that animals have maternal feelings too, for anyone who only read the title. Unfortunately it probably won't wash with people who think that human feelings inherently have greater value than those of animals....

LyndaNotLinda · 18/08/2016 12:14

I've read the article. A lot of it simply isn't true about modern UK farming.

It's a shame because this discussion has been interesting and thoughtful until recently. But calling people psychopaths and using hyperbole to make a point is counterproductive and unnecessary. A lot of people don't realise what happens to male calves or chicks and I think it's important that we are all making informed choices about our food and where it comes from. But that just shuts people's ears.

BeBopTalulah · 18/08/2016 12:18

Any progress this (initially) empathetic and healthy discussion made has just taken a huge leap backwards as far as I'm concerned. Totally lost me after the psychopath comment.

ElphabaTheGreen · 18/08/2016 12:25

The funniest comment on this subject that I've read (and steal frequently) is from Anthony Bourdain's 'Kitchen Confidential': '....vegetarians and their Hezbollah-type splinter-faction, the vegans.'

Among all the reasonable vegans on this thread, I think we've just experienced a small terrorist attack...

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 12:27

"people who think that human feelings inherently have greater value than those of animals"

If we can't at least agree on the (frankly undeniable) fact that humans have higher cognitive function, depth of thought and emotion than a cow or a fish, I can see nothing to be gained from discussing this subject.

I certainly don't see foxes or lions trying to persist on leaves & roots because they feel sorry for the animals they eat. Neither do I see cats and dogs taking care of their mothers in their old age.

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 12:29

Elphaba that is quite funny. The splinter group's expanding pretty rapidly though!

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 12:35

I don't know whether cows feel the same depth of emotion as me. I don't know whether the human sitting next to me has the same depth of emotion as me! It is all relative, but that doesn't make it less real for the being involved.

I also don't know how much other animals consider the world; a fair number of species are known to develop likings for each other and for particular humans, which implies a level of thought does go on. I'll give you cognitive function for the most part, although I think there are studies showing complex thought does go in in other species.

So in summary, it looks like I don't meet your criteria for an informative discussion. No need for you to hang around

Batteriesallgone · 18/08/2016 12:36

Well it is true that most farms interrupt the 'natural' (not that artificially bred and selected farm animals are particularly natural) mothering process between the mother animal and her calf/piglet/chick etc.

I am a meat eater and am well aware of the 'collateral damage' involved with every portion of meat. Also when you consume milk you have to accept you are probably also 'consuming' the death of male calves born to dairy cows.

I only buy ethical meat because I don't like suffering but where I diverge from vegans is that I don't have an issue with slaughtering animals. Male calves slaughtered at a day old, male chicks macerated - fine. Animals kept in tiny pens / fed other animals ground up bedding, shit and pumped full of antibiotics, kept alive when clearly suffering because they are still 'producing' - not fine.

That's my take on it anyway.

HermioneWeasley · 18/08/2016 12:38

This is getting worse and worse. To argue that farm animals and fish are capable of the same feelings as humans is demonstrable nonsense.

Argue a credible point, not that cows and humans are equal or that meat eaters have a serious psychosis

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 12:45

I don't think discussions go very well when people use phrases like 'demonstrable nonsense', Hermione. If a cat or dog is capable of being sad or maternal or whatever, why isn't a cow? And why aren't we eating dogs/cats? Why do they get credit for strategic thinking?

Basically I don't think that being human makes us automatically the best and most important species. Throw your hands up in despair if you like, it doesn't bother me.

Batteries I agree that early slaughter trumps a life of misery if you have to choose one or the other.

HermioneWeasley · 18/08/2016 12:56

Only humans and higher order primates have the parts of the brain that allow us to be self aware, remember emotions, plan and organise. Other species simply aren't capable of it. I don't want them to suffer while alive, but have no moral problem with quick slaughter. I've been in abattoirs and seen the whole process and was happy that the welfare standards were high and the animals didn't suffer. I'm sure you'll disagree, I'm just stating my moral compass.

I don't eat cats and dogs as they're not available in the uk. If i lived in parts of Asia i would without thinking about it

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 12:57

BeBop:

Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"
CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 12:57

Well, some things are demonstrable nonsense.

There are zillions of books, references, documentaries etc on exactly how humans are different than other animals. How our brains are different, what it means to have a much larger cerebral cortex, especially the frontal lobes associated with executive functions etc. "But I don't know how animals consider the world, they might be just like us" isn't an argument. It just means that you need to read a bit more. From science books, not vegan websites.

BeBopTalulah · 18/08/2016 13:04

RedLarva Thank you, but I have no desire to become a vegan Smile I'm also very difficult to goad, so perhaps direct any further self-righteous prodding elsewhere?

LaContessaDiPlump · 18/08/2016 13:04

I write up medical literature for a living, Cote. No need to patronise.

The fact that animals do not have the same type of brain as me does not mean that their feelings are worthless.

CoteDAzur · 18/08/2016 13:05

Rudeness is the least of your worries, RedLarva Grin

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 13:05

I don't think non-human animals are equal to humans. I do think they have feelings, they nurture their young, some stay in familial groups, form bonds, are sad when members of their herd/flock whatever die etc.
We do not NEED to eat them. Why not be compassionate then, and allow them life?

Back to the slant of this post, knowing as I do that we can all be healthy on a vegan diet, vegan parents should be commended, or at they very least not vilified, for opting out of the norm, and choosing compassion, and instilling compassion and genuine respect for all creatures, in our children.

RedLarvaYellowLarva · 18/08/2016 13:10

Cross-posted a bit.
To add. Even if you don't believe 'food' animals have feelings (sheep, cows chickens), there is clear evidence that they do feel pain. Why be the cause of that pain, if it can be avoided?

I suppose the vast majority of you wouldn't want the same life and death that farmed animals are subjected to, inflicted on your pets? Why are dogs and cats different, to you?