Guest post: "I'd never raise my children as anything but vegan"

[MumsnetGuestPosts]

I have been vegan for almost nine years. My four-year-old daughter has eaten a plant-based diet since birth (yes, breast milk is vegan) and my second baby, due shortly, will be joining her. It was never something we questioned. We knew that children could grow up strong and healthy on a vegan diet, so why would we introduce foods we wouldn't eat ourselves? My grandma thinks it's a shame she's never tasted a pork sausage, but other than that our choice hasn't attracted much criticism.

Last week, however, an Italian politician proposed a law that would allow the state to prosecute parents who choose to raise their children vegan. The proposed law has come about after a number of high-profile cases of severe malnourishment as a result of parents imposing inadequate vegan diets, and has opened up a debate about whether it's ok to raise children on a vegan diet.

A vegan diet needn't be restrictive. While veganism means avoiding animal products - cheese, meat, gelatine, to name but a few - a rich and varied diet is easily achievable. My daughter eats fruits and vegetables, lentils, tofu, grains, beans and nuts, cereals fortified with vitamins and she also takes a daily multivitamin specially formulated for vegan children. However, she can also hold her own when it comes to chocolate, chips, ice cream and all the other junk foods four-year-olds love to eat. I don’t want her to miss out, so I plan ahead for birthday parties or nursery celebrations so she can have sweets and cake with the rest of the children. She might grow up and decide she doesn't want to be vegan any more, but I don't want that to be because she felt left out growing up.

The NHS says that a vegan diet is fine for babies and children as long as it includes all of the necessary vitamins and minerals. The vegan parents I know are clued up when it comes to nutrition. I think being vegan actually encourages parents to be more critical of their family's diet than they may otherwise be - and that can only be a good thing.

Perhaps, instead of looking to prosecute vegan parents, it would be better for Italy to introduce measures to educate all parents about the importance of a varied diet in childhood. Italy has one of the highest rates of childhood obesity in the world - it’s clear that there's a pervasive lack of understanding about nutrition. Rather than vilifying all vegan parents for the mistakes of a few, resources would be better used educating people about how to achieve a healthy diet - whether this includes animal products or not.

I went vegan after years of being vegetarian. I found out about the cruelty involved in the dairy industry and decided to take the next step to reduce animal suffering. For me, veganism has always been about animal exploitation. The health and environmental benefits of the lifestyle are a bonus, but they're not the reason I choose to be vegan. I am raising my daughter to consider the needs of other people and animals when making decisions. She may not always be vegan. She might grow up and decide she loves beef burgers. I have no idea what the future holds, just like other parents don't know if their children will grow up to embrace the family's love of the outdoors, jazz music or the Labour Party. All I can do is try to teach her compassion now and hope that it sticks. And if it doesn't? Well, she's my daughter and I will love her unconditionally, no matter what.

[MyNightWithMaud]

That may be so, SuburbanRhonda, but the fact remains that I have only one friend whose fb timeline is full of her children's constant sniffles and her own health niggles and that's the only vegan in my fb group. I acknowledged earlier that anecdotes are not evidence and correlation is not cause and effect; perhaps being so ultra-careful about what she and her children eat makes her ultra-vigilant to what their bodies are doing too?

[SuburbanRhonda]

I have only one friend whose fb timeline is full of her children's constant sniffles and her own health niggles and that's the only vegan in my fb group

That's hilarious as a response to my comment about people's veggie / vegan anecdotes on these threads.

[SuburbanRhonda]

chinks

The post in question talked about a vegetarian parent and vegetarian children - no mention of any meat eaters in the household, which would rather lessen the "shock horror - veggie children so desperate for bacon they buy and cook it themselves" angle of the story

[LaContessaDiPlump]

MyNightWithMaud was your vegan friend always sickly - did she perhaps go vegan in an attempt to offset her illnesses? Or have the illnesses arisen with her vegan lifestyle?

[bikerlou]

I raised my son as vegetarian and he's never eaten meat, he's 34 now and runs marathons. I am mostly vegan but occasionally eat my friends chicken's eggs if she has any spare. I do think that parents need to be very well educated on the vegan diet though because it can go wrong.
Education is the key, and I can't see a problem as long as the parents are fully aware of what nutrition the child needs.
I wouldn't feed my cats a vegan diet though, they get specialist organic food.

[PaperdollCartoon]

Two points that came to me.

1. We are all omnivores regardless of what we choose to eat, and humans can thrive on many kinds of diets. We're the most adaptable animal on the planet, it's a large reason why there's so many of us populating all kinds of different environments. I'm vegan but I can digest meat, I just choose not to eat it. Therefore I'm an omnivore who chooses to eat vegan. Someone who eats meat by choice is a Carnist, although also an omnivore by evolution. They could also live healthily on a plant based diet, as I could on one containing meat, but choose not to. Vegan is a term many people know, whilst very few people know the word Carnist, but I do think it's important to mention. Veganism is a choice, so is Carnism. Carnism is the default in our society by that doesn't mean it is the only healthy option.
   

Dairy is a weird one though, no other animal on the planet harvests the breast milk of another animal to consume after the age of weaning. It's no wonder around 75% of the planet is lactose intolerant to some degree, and it is a bit weird when you think about it. But humans do many weird and 'unnatural' things, it's very hard to know what any aspect of our 'natural' state would be, food or otherwise. A diet can include dairy and be generally healthy, whether it's 'natural' or not.

1. Many people assume a vegan/vegan child's diet would consist of fruits, veggies and lentils and not much else. There seems to be an image of lots of heathy salads and chickpeas which a 'normal' child wouldn't eat. Yes I eat lots of these, plus beans, rice, pasta and tofu, but there are also lots of vegan meat and dairy substitute options now which taste great and are very similar with regard to the amount of calcium/protein etc but much less by the way of bad fats, and make it very easy to get these nutrients in, even without huge amount of legumes and green leafy veg!
   

A few ideas for a vegan child's diet that would look very similar to a Carnist child (not saying a perfect diet but just to show it doesn't need to be weird or different)

Breakfast:
Cereal with soya or almond milk (they have added calcium to basically the same amount as dairy milk)
Toast with vegan spread and marmite or jam, or nut butter and jam or banana, or vegan cheese on toast (I had cheese and marmite on toast yesterday, yum)
Soya yogurt and fruit
Porridge with a plant milk
Homemade breakfast bars
Homemade smoothie
Vegan cream cheese bagel

Lunch:
Vegan cheese and spread on crackers with chopped up veg
Sandwich with vegan cheese, or vegan ham and vegan Mayo/spread and salad and Hula Hoops/Pom bears/Skips/ready salted crisps (yes all vegan) and fruit or a homemade vegan cookie
Pita bread, carrot sticks and humous
Vegan cream cheese mini wraps with sliced red pepper, a soya yogurt and vegan flapjack

Dinner:
Vegan 'chicken' nuggets (Fry's brand vegan meats are made from soya and wheat proteins and have a negligable amount less protein than their meat counterparts, but less fat) with chips and beans
Tomato/pesto pasta
Vegan sausage, mash, peas and gravy
Baked potato with vegan cheese and beans
Vegan shepherds pie/lasagne
Fry's vegan schnitzel with rice and veggies
Veggie fajitas with veggie meat strips
Vegan fish cakes (thank you VBites for your wonderful invention) with chips and peas

I really could go on, but my point is there is really no need to be concerned about vegan children's diets. Look at all the choice! Does it look that different to what your non vegan children eat?

[MyNightWithMaud]

Err no, it isn't, SuburbanRhonda, because I said it as one of the very first posts on this thread - and pointed out then that it had no status beyond being an anecdote - so you're taking your lead from me, not me from you. ::head tilt::

LaContessa - I don't know the full length of my friend's medical history, but her children have been vegan from birth and, according to her FB reports, constantly ill. There could be various explanations for that - maybe she's simply hyper-vigilant about their health and quicker to publicise minor ailments than other friends, maybe they'd be a great deal less healthy on any other diet. It's all speculation and, as I've said consistently, correlation isn't cause and effect.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

PaperdollCartoon

DS1 wouldn't touch swathes of what you listed there. Any vegetable other than peas, sweetcorn or baked beans are the Antichrist, so carrot sticks and peppers to dip in houmus (another banned substance) is out of the question.

He is Not Fooled by meat, cheese and dairy substitutes. Trust me. I've tried and tried. And wiped it off the walls. And tried again. Both store-bought and home- made - I make insanely good Seitan, and have soaked cashews like a pro to make vegan cheese sauce. No dice.

He won't eat anything in pastry so the vegan sausage rolls mentioned by a PP, containing both pastry and meat substitute, would be spat out, if sampled at all.

He will eat eggs in reasonable quantities, but only scrambled. He will drink gallons of cow's milk and eat yoghurt (only pink so probably crawling with cochineal as well). He will eat fish fingers, ham and sausages (but hates all other meat, so I may make a veggie out of him yet). There endeth his protein-containing intake.

I repeat - vegans take for granted that they have good eaters if they are able to sustain a child on a vegan diet. And good luck to them I say. I would happily be vegan if I had the willpower, I think it's admirable. But please acknowledge that there is quite a bit of good fortune involved if you can get your DCs to eat that way.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Possibly inspired by this thread it's vegan pie and mash tonight

DS1 will sit in a corner demanding I play Lego with him. DS2 will possibly lick a few pieces of Seitan then upend his plate onto the floor.

[ChocolateChipCupcake]

Having been vegan for a number of years, and having a special interest in nutrition, I have brought my children up this way too. I can see that there is a lot of misunderstanding around this subject and for Batteriesallgone and anyone who would like to know the science behind which foods are healthy and why (in a very easy to understand way) I would highly recommend the website //www.nutritionfacts.org

[PaperdollCartoon]

Elphaba
Completely fair point, but a child eating any diet can be fussy or not fussy, or a good eater either way. My post was an example of many options, any child might decide to only eat a very limited selection of foods from any diet.
A child brought up only ever having soya milk and pink soya yogurt and vegan sausages might decide those are the only things they will eat, no different to a non vegan child who will only have cows milk, pink dairy yogurt and sausages surely? Peas, sweetcorn and baked beans work for both children. In fact a diet of both combinations could definitely be worse! Both may very well refuse mushrooms, broccoli, etc. Both may prefer cake to anything else.

Theres nothing in the ethical stance of either theoretical child's parents, or the lifestyle followed that really effects how fussy or not fussy they are, children will be as they are. If your son had only ever had the vegan options those are the ones he'd have a taste for. A child used to eating a certain kind of meat sausage would certainly notice if you'd tried to replace with a vegan option, or even a different meat sausage and possibly refuse. A vegan child would likely have the same but opposite reaction. Do you see what I mean?

[PaperdollCartoon]

Would also love your seitan recipe, I use a few different ones but don't feel I've found 'the one' yet

[PaperdollCartoon]

Essentially, there's nothing inherent in desiring those non-vegan food. We know what we know. I wouldn't crave something I've never eaten.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

I do get what you mean, but apart from breastmilk, the only milk DS1 had from 6mo was soy due to lactose intolerance. At around 12 months, he decided the only soy milk he would ingest was vanilla soy which, given the sugar content, was a bit silly for the sake of ethics. He grabbed another child's normal milk at nursery shat for Britain and all he would touch thereafter was Lactofree dairy.

I use the seitan recipe from Veganomicon. If it's Isa Chandra Moskowitz recipe, I will ALWAYS try it!

[PaperdollCartoon]

Elphaba I have Veganomicon! I'll look it up. In that context I would do the same, though I would try to find any other alternative first! I wouldn't risk my child's health for the sake of ethics, ultimately I hope I don't have to. But I'm admittedly less strict than some. For example I'm happy for future DCs to be essentially vegetarian/flexible outside the home until I can explain my choices better to them, ie. Child giving out Haribo at school, they can have it if they want. When they're old enough I'll explain why I don't eat it and will offer an alternative if they wish. If we do school lunches rather than packed lunch happy for them to have the more inclusive vegetarian option until they decide for themselves if they want to go fully vegan or not. Same for PPs example of child not being able to have bread with milk powder in on trip away, that's fine with me.

DP isn't fully vegan, he is at home, takes vegan lunch to work, vegan 95% of the time but eats meat occasionally in restaurants, so I'm comfortable with our home continuing to be vegan with kids but with some flexibility outside. I hope I can instill my ethics in them but ultimately they'll be their own people.

[Nowabruptly]

I'm vegan (and of the view that a well-planned vegan diet can be a positive thing for kids), but am primarily posting to say how refreshing it is to read such intelligent (generally) and polite (generally) comments on here from people of both views. In most other forums a mere mention of the word vegan will stir up aggressive and offensive uninformed responses that are impossible to respond to as so lacking in logic. V impressed by mumsnetters this evening!

[PaperdollCartoon]

nowabruptly completely agree

[judey]

What a beautiful post. I'm trying to ignore the hostility and hilarious/predictable comments such as 'I know loads of sickly vegans' etc. After over 30 years of failing to see an animals as food, I get a little bored of the same ignorant attacks. Perhaps think of something new?
Anyway, to quote a vegetarian 3 year old 'Why do people eat animals when they don't need to'? Why can't they stop hurting animals and eat vegetarian food instead'? It's so simple. Answering is more of a challenge. Fundamentally selfish would be my main argument. Conformity? Lack of moral reasoning? Laziness? Fear? Ignorance? Right wing/authoritarian personality? Genuine questions- I have never understood how anyone other than a psychopath can pay for animals to be hurt and killed for something that they don't need.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

PaperdollCartoon

'Simple Seitan' is the recipe I use, and the pie we had tonight was the 'Seitan Pot Pie' in the same book. Stick-to-your-ribs comfort food. It's gorgeous. I gave it to DH's vegetarian-hating grandmother (she doesn't know what vegans are but would probably be even more horrified if she did) and she was none the wiser, and asked me what ratio of butter to lard I'd used in the delicious pastry It also freezes brilliantly in its uncooked state, so I usually make a double-batch and freeze them in three-person serves (one each for me and DH, one serve between the DCs to ignore )

[PaperdollCartoon]

Elphaba sounds fab! I love pastry buy rarely make pies, will definitely give it a go

[PaperdollCartoon]

Judey I don't think saying only psychopaths eat animals is very helpful. I do understand where you're coming from, but when people are taught from birth that eating certain animals is normal, it become about habit and taste, not a deliberately destructive action.

Food isn't just sustainance, it's traditions, family, meaning. People aren't shown the realities of modern farming, they see picture books of days gone by, they feel ok eating animals when there is humane slaughter, without really knowing what slaughter involves.

Speciesism taught from birth isn't easy to undo, but it's not a malicious act, and speaking as though it is pushes people away rather than bringing them in.

[Natsku]

I eat meat because it tastes good and is big part of my culture (very few meatless dishes in the usual festivals and special occasion meals). I'm not a psychopath, any more than any meat eating animal is a psychopath. I know my place in the food chain. Also have a big aversion to certain textures so vegan staples such as tofu and mushrooms are out.

[HermioneWeasley]

Labelling all meat eaters as psychopaths has got to be one of the stupidest and easily disproven statements that I've ever read on MN.

[DurhamDurham]

I'm trying to ignore the hostility

Followed by........

I have never understood how anyone other than a psychopath can pay for animals to be hurt and killed for something that they don't need

[LaContessaDiPlump]

Judey I don't think your final statement is particularly helpful. Paperdoll has got it right - when you're raised with something then it becomes second nature and questioning it is a big jump.

The majority of meat-eaters that I know aren't all 'Bwah ha ha, I shall eat the meat of this poorly-reared pig and laugh as I do it' but rather 'I try to buy better quality meat when I can and I eat less of it accordingly' - definitely people with a moral compass and not psychopaths. I do find people who resort immediately to 'Fk you, I like meat so I'm eating it and the animals can just f* off too' a bit though. I've met a few, sadly!