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Guest post: 'The Sun has shown how little respect it has for women'

184 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 22/01/2015 14:45

If you were in any doubt that The Sun hates women, doubt no more. Two days ago it allowed its sister paper, The Times, to run a report claiming Page Three would no longer be a feature of the tabloid. Today it mocked all those who had been taken in by it. While such mockery took the form of a media in-joke ("We would like to apologise on behalf of the print and broadcast journalists who have spent the last two days talking and writing about us") it’s clear that the stunt had another, crueller target: all the women who have been campaigning against Page Three, women who had been permitted to think, for just one moment, that their voices mattered.

It is, of course, a show of power. The Sun giveth respect, The Sun taketh it away. It’s reminiscent of the way in which teenage boys taunt girls to hide their own insecurity. He says he loves you, then three days later he’s laughing with his mates, telling you it was all for a dare. It’s a form of cruelty which can leave you feeling humiliated, as though you are to blame for having dared to believe that someone male could have appreciated your human worth. You know that sexism isn't your fault but it still makes you feel like a loser. In a world in which value is determined by the male gaze, it’s so easy to end up feeling worthless.

One of feminism’s biggest challenges remains persuading downhearted women that even the little things matter, if for no other reason than because we matter. While some things – male violence, rape conviction statistics, female poverty rates – are clear and measurable, other things – those that contribute to the drip-drip effect of dehumanisation – are dismissed as either unimportant or not real sexism, anyway. Page 3 has always been one such thing. I'm old enough to remember Clare Short campaigning against it in the 1980s and my main response then was one of embarrassment. Why didn't this woman give it a rest? They’re only breasts! Didn't she know how silly she was making the rest of us look? It took me 30 years to put her campaign – and my own dismissive attitude towards it – into any broader context. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful that young women today won’t need quite so long.

The schoolboy meanness of The Sun’s latest stunt has not gone unnoticed. Indeed, the misogyny that drives it is striking. The message to women is "you might be more than just objects, but that makes treating you like one all the more fun". We’re used to all the excuses regarding Page 3. It’s just a pretty woman. It’s just naked flesh. Are you jealous? Maybe you’re some prude who doesn't like sex. Anyhow, what about FGM? Shouldn't you be campaigning against that? Until yesterday, there was always that tiny space for doubt. There isn't any more, though. The Sun has made the link between casual objectification and contempt for women absolutely clear. The little things do matter after all.

Ultimately what The Sun did this week helps us to join the dots. It sends a radicalising message to women who may not otherwise have cared about such things. Whereas we might have thought casual misogyny could never bleed from the page into real life, we now know better. In many ways, this knowledge is more valuable that the concession we thought we were being offered two days ago. Perhaps, in the long run, we will find ourselves thanking The Sun.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 23/01/2015 22:11

Yeah it's womens fault men view them as sex objects.

Talk about deflecting responsibility and not naming the problem.

This is a demand-led market, not supply-led.

PhaedraIsMyName · 23/01/2015 22:32

scallops as opposed to avoiding the unpleasant fact that Page 3 clearly doesn't bother many women at all.

I didn't say it was women' s fault but you are missing the point that male and female minds need to be engaged.

Ask yourself why are women not put off buying The Sun?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 23/01/2015 22:47

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rootypig · 23/01/2015 22:50

The idea that because people willingly do something - even skipping over the complexities of real, informed choice - it is harmless, is absolutely fucking ludicrous.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 23/01/2015 22:55

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PhaedraIsMyName · 23/01/2015 23:03

Buffy And what do you propose to do to engage such women?

And as for not wanting to be mocked? Really their fear of being mocked is taken to the extent of buying it on the way to work and reading it their tea break? In a law office ? Who exactly is going to mock them there?

Thankfully the rise of the free Metro is having an effect but before that the paper of choice for many of the non - professional female employees in offices I've worked in was The Sun.

You clearly don't think "it's harmless fun" . Neither do I as it happens. But other than blaming men (or as one poster suggests a certain class of men) what do you say to the several million female Sun readers who don't agree with you?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 23/01/2015 23:10

what do you say to the several million female Sun readers who don't agree with you?

Mostly, if asked what I think, I tell them it's a fucking rag and not fit to line a litter tray. Mostly, I'm not asked though.

What do you say?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 23/01/2015 23:18

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PhaedraIsMyName · 23/01/2015 23:36

I asked "why" because I assumed you had an interest in /aim of ending Page 3. Possibly you don't.

I wasn't exactly using "you" meaning you specifically.

My point was that it is perhaps not a matter on which women are engaged with as much as the posters on here are.

Hayday got shot down in flames for raising the point but it's a valid one.I haven't seen any responses which deal with it - Stockholm syndrome, fear of being mocked? A bit implausible.

rootypig · 24/01/2015 02:14

From the second they are born, women are rewarded for being cooperative and compliant, for keeping quiet, for maintaining the status quo, and for being sexually attractive to men, on men's terms. These messages could not be more explicit, though they are also insidious. Above all they are relentless. This blog post is about how aggressively this system of gender hierarchy is expressed and defended. And you want to know why some women choose to play the game? do me a fucking favour.

The question is, and always is, who runs the show, who stands to gain. If you think it's Kelsey from Bournemouth with her 36DD jugs, you are deluded.

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/01/2015 02:34

The response,as always, that women are eternal, deluded,oppressed victims. Your first sentence is so hyperbolic it's difficult to know where to begin.

You're missing the point. I was not talking about who runs the show. I was talking about the fact there would seem to be large numbers of women who simply aren't bothered by Page 3 to the extent you and others are.

rootypig · 24/01/2015 02:53

Inculturated misogyny - for that is what page 3 is - is demonstrably harmful to all women, and on that basis women who simply aren't bothered don't get to choose for the rest of us. Not for me, and not for my daughter.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 24/01/2015 08:17

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OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 09:01

Why do people campaigning against page 3 have to lay out a plan for making every single person who likes it or isn't bothered by it agree with them? That's a pointless unachievable aim. Why isn't it enough thousands upon thousands of people hate it, and have good arguments for it ceasing. Not least that it is often used to facilitate harassment of women and girls including young teens.

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 24/01/2015 09:03

Phaedra maybe those women are lucky enough not to have had creepy bastards use it to upset, humiliate or perve over them when they were young.

That's why I hate it.

SauceForTheGander · 24/01/2015 10:04

Omnipotent exactly.

Page3 has been used to groom children into sexual conversations - it has been used to humiliate women & girls.

All this - "it's fine because some women are fine with it" is a spurious argument because many people are not fine with it and it has a wider social impact than its readership. The fact so many people don't think so shows how perniciously it has cemented itself into our cultural backdrop rather than is proof it is fine.

page 3 stories

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 24/01/2015 10:27

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PhaedraIsMyName · 24/01/2015 12:04

All this - "it's fine because some women are fine with it" is a spurious argument because many people are not fine with it and it has a wider social impact than its readership

I did not say Page 3 is fine. I don't like it and never have. If that comment is addressed to me you clearly didn't read what I said.

My point is there is an uphill struggle still to be fought if it's to be got rid. One which is not going to be achieved if you (a)lay all the blame on (working class) men and (b) fail to engage with millions of women who don't care one way or another.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 24/01/2015 12:10

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AskBasil · 24/01/2015 12:40

TBH I don't think you need to engage with millions of women who don't care one way or another.

If they don't care one way or another, they won't care if activists get Page 3 taken down.

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/01/2015 14:10

Are they not clever enough to understand, as we do, that it is a problem?

That's a fair summing up of the position demonstrated on this and other threads in this section.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 24/01/2015 14:14

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PetulaGordino · 24/01/2015 14:18

I don't think other women aren't clever enough (wtf??)

I think they are busy trying to get on with everything else that is required of a woman in a patriarchal society. Which is why I'm not going to add to that burden by insisting they take up every feminist battle, regardless of how important I think it is - it's my choice to move that up my priority scale

(The working class white van man stereotype stuff is bullshit, I think most people on this thread know that)

AskBasil · 24/01/2015 18:28

No one else is insisting they take up every feminist battle either.

Just requesting that they don't stand in the way of those who are taking up some of them.

AskBasil · 24/01/2015 18:29

Jesus, I don't know one feminist anywhere who would "insist" that any other woman take up any battle anywhere, let alone every feminist battle going.

Hmm