Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

Guest post: 'The Sun has shown how little respect it has for women'

184 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 22/01/2015 14:45

If you were in any doubt that The Sun hates women, doubt no more. Two days ago it allowed its sister paper, The Times, to run a report claiming Page Three would no longer be a feature of the tabloid. Today it mocked all those who had been taken in by it. While such mockery took the form of a media in-joke ("We would like to apologise on behalf of the print and broadcast journalists who have spent the last two days talking and writing about us") it’s clear that the stunt had another, crueller target: all the women who have been campaigning against Page Three, women who had been permitted to think, for just one moment, that their voices mattered.

It is, of course, a show of power. The Sun giveth respect, The Sun taketh it away. It’s reminiscent of the way in which teenage boys taunt girls to hide their own insecurity. He says he loves you, then three days later he’s laughing with his mates, telling you it was all for a dare. It’s a form of cruelty which can leave you feeling humiliated, as though you are to blame for having dared to believe that someone male could have appreciated your human worth. You know that sexism isn't your fault but it still makes you feel like a loser. In a world in which value is determined by the male gaze, it’s so easy to end up feeling worthless.

One of feminism’s biggest challenges remains persuading downhearted women that even the little things matter, if for no other reason than because we matter. While some things – male violence, rape conviction statistics, female poverty rates – are clear and measurable, other things – those that contribute to the drip-drip effect of dehumanisation – are dismissed as either unimportant or not real sexism, anyway. Page 3 has always been one such thing. I'm old enough to remember Clare Short campaigning against it in the 1980s and my main response then was one of embarrassment. Why didn't this woman give it a rest? They’re only breasts! Didn't she know how silly she was making the rest of us look? It took me 30 years to put her campaign – and my own dismissive attitude towards it – into any broader context. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful that young women today won’t need quite so long.

The schoolboy meanness of The Sun’s latest stunt has not gone unnoticed. Indeed, the misogyny that drives it is striking. The message to women is "you might be more than just objects, but that makes treating you like one all the more fun". We’re used to all the excuses regarding Page 3. It’s just a pretty woman. It’s just naked flesh. Are you jealous? Maybe you’re some prude who doesn't like sex. Anyhow, what about FGM? Shouldn't you be campaigning against that? Until yesterday, there was always that tiny space for doubt. There isn't any more, though. The Sun has made the link between casual objectification and contempt for women absolutely clear. The little things do matter after all.

Ultimately what The Sun did this week helps us to join the dots. It sends a radicalising message to women who may not otherwise have cared about such things. Whereas we might have thought casual misogyny could never bleed from the page into real life, we now know better. In many ways, this knowledge is more valuable that the concession we thought we were being offered two days ago. Perhaps, in the long run, we will find ourselves thanking The Sun.

OP posts:
Mydelilah · 22/01/2015 22:33
Mydelilah · 22/01/2015 22:33

Oops, italics fail!

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 22/01/2015 22:38

at the end of the day though, we shouldn't take it too seriously. these people are desperately trying to shore up an old order which is disintegrating. Re-asserting your ability to put tits on page 3 is not going to turn back the tide, Sun-reading gobshites. Women are getting wealth and power and the ability the throw men on the scrapheap if they don't find them appealing. Suck it up.

Wotsitdooda23 · 22/01/2015 23:27

I just wanted to chip in... it's not just women offended and fighting against this *waves hand.
The worst thing about this is not just the objectification of women it's the normalisation of that objectifying: this is printed every day it's on the bottom shelf where ANYONE can pick it up to 'read'. Advertised on television... yeah it's normal to buy "newspapers" everyone does it, yeah of course "newspapers" have tits it's totally normal - what's your problem?

Fully grown adults are free to look at whatever they please for whatever purposes they choose to do so, there are outlets for such things. Lads mags will still exist if women end up needing/falling into/get trapped by a life where they are paid to show body parts.
Pornography is widely available for everyone to use and suitably hidden from those who should not be exposed to such things.

The scum does something nastier it slaps this in a daily newspaper >cough billionaire's propaganda rag cough< the kind of thing people read over breakfast or leave on a bus seat. These pictures are included in something that is supposed to deliver news; here is news and oh, here is a 'bird wif norks' what it shows is women are for housing breasts and breasts are for men to look at.

The women underneath don't matter, to the men printing this rag or those looking at the pictures and the worst part about that is... they don't see it as a problem.

PhaedraIsMyName · 22/01/2015 23:49

Really heyday? You think the fact that page three continues to exist is the fault of women?

I'm assuming The Sun is not using trafficked women so yes if you think it's wrong I don't see how you can absolve the models. It would certainly help if they kept their clothes on.

Heyday has a point. Male attitudes and the attitudes of women who think page 3, stripping, lap dancing are empowering both need changing.

PhaedraIsMyName · 22/01/2015 23:55

Oh and it was of course a cheap , nasty , trick on the part of The Sun. I genuinely thought they had moved on and times had changed.

LightningOnlyStrikesOnce · 23/01/2015 06:45

It was a publicity stunt. Says it all really.

Purpleflamingos · 23/01/2015 07:52

The page 3 campaign never really grabbed me. I understood the campaign, was sympathetic to it, but thought feminism had bigger fights.
How much can one shit newspaper (is it even worthy of the term newspaper? It's hardly upmarket, unbiased, factually correct reporting) prove me wrong? Your post is right, it's a 'fuck off with opinions, you're sexual objects' message from the sun. I'm firmly in the no more page 3 campaign now.

rachelreallife · 23/01/2015 08:34

I feel exactly the same. I really wasn't bothered by the No More Page 3 but the attitude that The Sun have now shown has put me firmly in the No More Page 3 camp.

Miggsie · 23/01/2015 09:29

Yes, they really do hate women don't they - but I worked with journalists for years, and they are, pretty much 98% of them, repugnant.

1ChelseaMa · 23/01/2015 09:32

I can't help comparing it to topless holidays in South of France

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 23/01/2015 09:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AskBasil · 23/01/2015 09:57

Do you often have difficulty differentiating contexts Chelsea?

That must get you into trouble.

HeeHiles · 23/01/2015 10:27

Maybe it's time to step up the campaign like firebombing the offices calling for something more such as getting shops to refuse to sell it or calling on Parliament to ban naked titillating sexualised images in newspapers - if they want to print topless pictures put them somewhere else they could call it 'The Daily Tosser' Angry

LadyBlaBlah · 23/01/2015 10:33

Fantastic piece Glosswitch

I realise this reassertion of power is possibly an indication of the tide being shifted (they wouldn't need to do it otherwise) but as someone else on the other thread said, I see their behaviour as directly comparable to how abusive men work. And actually have found that incredibly triggering in a really odd way. I've fallen out with my bf about it, and feel completely radicalised about feminism even more than I was - it's the blatant disregard for women, especially the PR dude, that has unsettled me massively.

It reminds me of the post by Twisty in I Blame the Patriarchy - "Men Hate You"

People scoff at the post, but it depressingly shows she is right. They really do.

poorbuthappy · 23/01/2015 12:32

Buffy - Can I cut paste print and laminate that please? Then I can just hand it out and not even have to speak to certain people who refuse to see it.

Mumto3dc · 23/01/2015 12:38

I'm gutted... I've got 3 sons and a daughter and I'm absolutely gutted that one day they'll see the sun, how the bloody hell do I explain it to them?

How do people who support P3 justify/explain it to their sons and daughters?

SauceForTheGander · 23/01/2015 13:20

Oh yeah, Page 3 is exactly the same as going topless on the beach in South of France - if the women on that imaginary beach read the news to (at least) 2 million people on a daily basis and every single person on the beach was female aged between 18-24 & was considered "page 3 stunner"

It may have been mentioned but let's repeat for those at the back - it's about context. I have breasts myself which I see fairly regularly. It's not about not seeing breasts. It's about not conflating the right to see young woman's breasts every day & the news.

The Sun can't have it both ways. It can't say "whoever we get behind politically matters - we are a paper that helps set a political agenda" & then say the way it portrays women is just a bit of fun & inconsequential. They are a newspaper with relevance or they are not - they can't pick and choose which content doesn't impact the wider society.

scousadelic · 23/01/2015 14:35

The Sun has no respect for anybody, it doesn't reserve its disregard for women. b Look at the way it has been on Hillsborough and those who have stood against it.

Apparently to read The Sun you need a reading age of 9-10years. If you are a child of 9-10 years old you should not be looking at topless women, if you are an adult with an intellect of 9-10 years you need protecting against it. Disgusting rag

sausageeggbacon11 · 23/01/2015 15:11

The key demographic is white van man, unless that section on the population changes its opinion the campaign will get nowhere. Campaigning for something where you have no influence on the powers that be is a waste of time, want to win the battle change the tactics. Till then it is just an exercise in futility.

chockbic · 23/01/2015 15:26

Exactly cannot prevent a Neanderthal from drooling into his bacon butty, ogling a stranger's boobs.

MyFriendlyDaemon · 23/01/2015 16:05

Well page 3 girls could stop putting their breasts on display. They are colluding in this, apparently very willingly.

whatdoesittake48 · 23/01/2015 17:14

Sausage - my husband is a white van man and wouldn't been seen dead with that utter scummy paper. I get the sentiment - but really, lets not tar all men with the same brush. This paper targets a small subsection that will never agree with the campaign. This subsection runs from the most intelligent and well off down to the least.

Intelligence doesn't stop you from hating women. if the battle was only with the "white van man" we would have won it long ago. there are some very clever men making sure we are kept in our place.

PhaedraIsMyName · 23/01/2015 20:18

Sexist and class based comments like "white van men" will not persuade anyone who isn't already converted. There's no homogeneous group of men, or for that women, who like The Sun or are indifferent to it.

I see no-one wants to address the points made by hayday regarding the role women themselves play in perpetuating Page 3. The Sun Page 3 girls are , as far as they are concerned, making valid choices for themselves.

Well they would say that, wouldn't they is presumably the response.

Moving on from that what about women who, whilst not having a vested career interest, just don't care?

The Sun is read and bought by women too.

From The Guardian "

"The Sun is a bit of a boys' joy, too: 4,322,000 men against 3,429,000 women"

Tomorrow's media needs to be wired, inspired and for women

gu.com/p/2j6dt

OmnipotentQueenOfTheUniverse · 23/01/2015 22:10

The men who read it on my commute I assume are office workers. Not sure where the white van man thing comes from but is definitely not just them looking at page 3. And tbh rather looking in a van than on a tube or bus IMO.