Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

Guest post: 'The Sun has shown how little respect it has for women'

184 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 22/01/2015 14:45

If you were in any doubt that The Sun hates women, doubt no more. Two days ago it allowed its sister paper, The Times, to run a report claiming Page Three would no longer be a feature of the tabloid. Today it mocked all those who had been taken in by it. While such mockery took the form of a media in-joke ("We would like to apologise on behalf of the print and broadcast journalists who have spent the last two days talking and writing about us") it’s clear that the stunt had another, crueller target: all the women who have been campaigning against Page Three, women who had been permitted to think, for just one moment, that their voices mattered.

It is, of course, a show of power. The Sun giveth respect, The Sun taketh it away. It’s reminiscent of the way in which teenage boys taunt girls to hide their own insecurity. He says he loves you, then three days later he’s laughing with his mates, telling you it was all for a dare. It’s a form of cruelty which can leave you feeling humiliated, as though you are to blame for having dared to believe that someone male could have appreciated your human worth. You know that sexism isn't your fault but it still makes you feel like a loser. In a world in which value is determined by the male gaze, it’s so easy to end up feeling worthless.

One of feminism’s biggest challenges remains persuading downhearted women that even the little things matter, if for no other reason than because we matter. While some things – male violence, rape conviction statistics, female poverty rates – are clear and measurable, other things – those that contribute to the drip-drip effect of dehumanisation – are dismissed as either unimportant or not real sexism, anyway. Page 3 has always been one such thing. I'm old enough to remember Clare Short campaigning against it in the 1980s and my main response then was one of embarrassment. Why didn't this woman give it a rest? They’re only breasts! Didn't she know how silly she was making the rest of us look? It took me 30 years to put her campaign – and my own dismissive attitude towards it – into any broader context. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful that young women today won’t need quite so long.

The schoolboy meanness of The Sun’s latest stunt has not gone unnoticed. Indeed, the misogyny that drives it is striking. The message to women is "you might be more than just objects, but that makes treating you like one all the more fun". We’re used to all the excuses regarding Page 3. It’s just a pretty woman. It’s just naked flesh. Are you jealous? Maybe you’re some prude who doesn't like sex. Anyhow, what about FGM? Shouldn't you be campaigning against that? Until yesterday, there was always that tiny space for doubt. There isn't any more, though. The Sun has made the link between casual objectification and contempt for women absolutely clear. The little things do matter after all.

Ultimately what The Sun did this week helps us to join the dots. It sends a radicalising message to women who may not otherwise have cared about such things. Whereas we might have thought casual misogyny could never bleed from the page into real life, we now know better. In many ways, this knowledge is more valuable that the concession we thought we were being offered two days ago. Perhaps, in the long run, we will find ourselves thanking The Sun.

OP posts:
Bazoo23 · 25/01/2015 22:52

Page 3 girls pose topless on page 3 because THEY WANT TO! Who the hell are all of you to take that choice away from them? Having a topless woman in a newspaper hurts no one! I've posed for an armed forces fundraising calendar and guess what? I don't have low self esteem or feel objectified. Im proud of my body and empowered by how amazing the female figure is. Long live page 3 and get a life!

PuffinsAreFictitious · 25/01/2015 23:05

We already established that it does hurt people.... and an armed forces calendar isn't the same thing at all. Really, apples and oranges.

Bazoo23 · 25/01/2015 23:20

Whats the difference?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 25/01/2015 23:35

Really?

I've seen (and been involved in, peripherally) the Garrison Girls type calendars. They raise lots of money for some good causes, however, they aren't inside a newspaper. They don't normalise the 'women as mere body parts' trope that the S*n, Star and other 'newspapers' do when they have very young women being nothing other than objects in them, while surrounded by stories of men doing things.

It reinforces the idea that women are merely decorative, whereas men make news.

Boobs aren't harmful to women. Pictures of boobs aren't harmful to women. The type of calendar you've appeared in isn't necessarily harmful to women. Displaying women as solely decorative is.

It's not about getting a life, it's about understanding how depicting things in certain ways and in certain places alters and defines how those things are viewed by society.

livefastlove · 25/01/2015 23:59

My dh reads The Sun and dd,10 has seen pg 3 of course. I mentioned that they were getting rid of the pg3 girls to dh and she heard and asked about it, she was pleased they were getting rid of it. She said they are creepy and have fake smiles.
I think my dh is more swayed by her dislike of them than any argument made by an adult. He wouldn't want to see his daughter in there either.

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 07:33

Well no my dad wasnt impressed to see my calendar page i doubt any father wants their daughter doing it altho not topless i was wearing bikini and combat boots but my body my decision...really dont see why people seem to think page 3 girls need saving? Im glad I have my pics to look back on at 70!
To me the no more page 3 campaign is oppression, women should have the choice to be proud of their body.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 07:41

Bazoo, it's not the pictures themselves, it's where they are published.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 07:44

It's an editorial decision, the sun doesn't give a shit whether the women are proud of their bodies or not. It's men making the decisions about how women should be portrayed

I do actually find some sports club calendars problematic but that it off-topic in relation to this thread

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 07:48

Nmp3 don't want to ban p3 anyway. They want it to be a decision made by the sun to end p3 as an acknowledgement that it is outdated and objectifying women

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 10:56

But in my magazine today there is a picture of david gandy practically naked why is there no uproar over this?

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 11:00

Do you understand the context of a misogynistic society?

I don't especially care for the objectification of men either, but it is far less damaging and ubiquitous for men as a class

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 11:01

Where is that p3 bingo grid again?

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 11:04

Anti p3 bingo grid just as boringly predictable.
Objectification of women, outdated concept etc etc.
Some women like taking their clothes off for pictures and like men to find them attractive. And that affects anyone else's life how?

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 11:06

If i wasnt a mum, a fiance and possibly past the age limit at 23 I would love to do page 3! That doesnt make me of lesser iintelligence or someone to be pitied.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 11:19

"And that affects anyone else's life how?"

it is damaging to all women and girls when they are portrayed as available for men's objectification on a daily basis as some sort of right

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 11:23

"If i wasnt a mum, a fiance and possibly past the age limit at 23 I would love to do page 3!"

do you see how that phrase reflects the patriarchal society we live in? what/who do you think it is that stops someone who is a mum, a fiancée, and over the age of 23 being suitable for objectification?

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 11:54

That's actually a really interesting point (2nd quote).
At work now but will mull that over.

HeeHiles · 26/01/2015 12:05

And that affects anyone else's life how?

My 15 year old DD actually - She is sick of being groped, sick of being yelled at 'get your tits out love' sick of being asked by boys at school to take a selfie 'of your tits'

If a woman wants to pose topless it's her choice, but surely my dd's get a choice - they choose to not to pose topless, or the choice not to show their boobs to any creep that asks - not to be harassed by the kind of losers who read this trashy paper and then think it's ok to expect my dd's to behave the same.

Pose topless all you like but let's keep it out of a mainstream newspaper so it's not normalised and put it in a separate magazine sold on the top shelf out of the eye sight of my dd's and not left lying around in coffee shops, libraries and other public places.

HeeHiles · 26/01/2015 12:05

Oh and BTW - I don't buy it but we still see the images Sad

Mengog · 26/01/2015 12:31

Heehiles - Surely most fifteen year olds don't read a newspaper. The boys attitude is more likely due them sitting at school and being able to watch hardcore porn with a touch of a button.

HeeHiles · 26/01/2015 12:44

No they are not allowed mobiles in school - they are handed in at the beginning of the day - And no they don't read the paper, just look at the pictures!

But it's the insidious nature of the paper, it's everywhere, it can be picked up on the bus, or the tube, it might be lying around at home, or in McDonalds - As I pointed out you don't have to purchase the paper to see these images.

If we can get it out of a daily newspaper it will be a step closer to women and young girls being treated as equals not just a pair of breast for a man's titillation.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 12:46

it;s the continued normalisation of objectification mengog

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 14:07

Bazoo, do you accept the principle that a p3 type image shouldn't appear absolutely everywhere (in, say, the Doctor Who magazine or on Newsround ie programmes with a considerable pre teen following)?

If so, then we are disagreeing solely on a matter of degree: you think a newspaper is a reasonable place for such photos, I do not.

chocwocci · 26/01/2015 14:30

Back in my 20s I was desperate to be a page 3, I thought I had the figure as i was a size 8, natural d cup and slim. The Sun turned me down, said " I wasn't what they were looking for". Now 10 odd years later I agree that we should ban pg3, no not because of sour grapes, but because I realise how stupid I was to think that "glamour modelling" is an appropriate career choice, its not. Page 3 normalises the idea its good to get "your tits out for the lads", I wouldn't want the young girls in my family becoming pg3 girls either.

Another point is all the page 3 girls are slim, white, I'm a women of colour and that was another reason why the glamour modelling world wasn't keen on me. They has only been a few ethnic models on pg3, and they are lighten up on page 3, one of the Asian models is a lot darker in real life.

Having pg3 in our parent daily rag made me have distorted warped ideas,
because it made me think that getting naked for the blokes was a worthy thing to do, and to believe that by being on page3 I would of achieved a goal, and that it proved to my bullies at school that they were wrong, that I wasn't ugly. But being on pg3 isn't a way to tackle insecurities! Pg3 is damaging.

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 15:07

No absolutely page 3 shouldn't be everywhere but to be honest young children/teens shouldn't be reading the sun theres a lot in there more disturbing than a pair of breasts!
But its the way people talk about page 3 girls pityingly as though they know not what they do...i mentioned my calendar shoot earlier, ive done promo work (ring girl, shot girl) and other bits and bobs as a student needing extra cash but reading this thread makes me feel like things like that are demeaning to women and I should be ashamed as yes it is objectifying.
I dont word myself very well but I understand the principle of no more page 3, but really who is it saving?
The Sun would go on regardless, teenage boys would still be obsessed with breasts regardless, and some young girls who WANT to do it have missed the opportunity of a foot into the door of glamour modelling.