Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Guest posts

Guest post: 'The Sun has shown how little respect it has for women'

184 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 22/01/2015 14:45

If you were in any doubt that The Sun hates women, doubt no more. Two days ago it allowed its sister paper, The Times, to run a report claiming Page Three would no longer be a feature of the tabloid. Today it mocked all those who had been taken in by it. While such mockery took the form of a media in-joke ("We would like to apologise on behalf of the print and broadcast journalists who have spent the last two days talking and writing about us") it’s clear that the stunt had another, crueller target: all the women who have been campaigning against Page Three, women who had been permitted to think, for just one moment, that their voices mattered.

It is, of course, a show of power. The Sun giveth respect, The Sun taketh it away. It’s reminiscent of the way in which teenage boys taunt girls to hide their own insecurity. He says he loves you, then three days later he’s laughing with his mates, telling you it was all for a dare. It’s a form of cruelty which can leave you feeling humiliated, as though you are to blame for having dared to believe that someone male could have appreciated your human worth. You know that sexism isn't your fault but it still makes you feel like a loser. In a world in which value is determined by the male gaze, it’s so easy to end up feeling worthless.

One of feminism’s biggest challenges remains persuading downhearted women that even the little things matter, if for no other reason than because we matter. While some things – male violence, rape conviction statistics, female poverty rates – are clear and measurable, other things – those that contribute to the drip-drip effect of dehumanisation – are dismissed as either unimportant or not real sexism, anyway. Page 3 has always been one such thing. I'm old enough to remember Clare Short campaigning against it in the 1980s and my main response then was one of embarrassment. Why didn't this woman give it a rest? They’re only breasts! Didn't she know how silly she was making the rest of us look? It took me 30 years to put her campaign – and my own dismissive attitude towards it – into any broader context. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful that young women today won’t need quite so long.

The schoolboy meanness of The Sun’s latest stunt has not gone unnoticed. Indeed, the misogyny that drives it is striking. The message to women is "you might be more than just objects, but that makes treating you like one all the more fun". We’re used to all the excuses regarding Page 3. It’s just a pretty woman. It’s just naked flesh. Are you jealous? Maybe you’re some prude who doesn't like sex. Anyhow, what about FGM? Shouldn't you be campaigning against that? Until yesterday, there was always that tiny space for doubt. There isn't any more, though. The Sun has made the link between casual objectification and contempt for women absolutely clear. The little things do matter after all.

Ultimately what The Sun did this week helps us to join the dots. It sends a radicalising message to women who may not otherwise have cared about such things. Whereas we might have thought casual misogyny could never bleed from the page into real life, we now know better. In many ways, this knowledge is more valuable that the concession we thought we were being offered two days ago. Perhaps, in the long run, we will find ourselves thanking The Sun.

OP posts:
Mengog · 26/01/2015 15:12

Why is glamour modelling not an appropriate career choice. A friend of a friend was a very successful page 3 model. Now owns two houses in London, lives in LA and has had a few small movie roles.

I think the argument about page 3 is separate to that of glamour modelling.

PetulaGordino · 26/01/2015 15:13

no one thinks you should be ashamed bazoo

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 15:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 16:04

I would still do the calendar shoot I loved doing that, the promo stuff could sonetimes be a bit grim with drunk idiots but on the whole I look back and I enjoyed it.
If I got offered promo work today, no I wouldnt do it just because I have a daughter and am engaged it feels a long time ago.
Interestingly I would NOT want my daughter to do any of that as I feel shes worth more...bloody hell what does that say about me?! Psychology here!

scallopsrgreat · 26/01/2015 16:11

"No absolutely page 3 shouldn't be everywhere but to be honest young children/teens shouldn't be reading the sun theres a lot in there more disturbing than a pair of breasts!"

Its not just about whether children or people who don't want to see P3 actually see it. It is about the attitude it engenders in those who do want/choose to see it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 16:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SauceForTheGander · 26/01/2015 16:21

livefastlove

That's a really interesting post - both your DD's perception & your DH's reaction to it. I know my friend is really uncomfortable about page 3 because her & uncle used to discuss the page 3 girl in front of her in a matter of fact "this is what's going on in the world today" and it has stuck with her until adulthood (30 years on)

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 16:23

It does make sense and I know what you mean about the temptation to aspire to it.
This is probably off topic really but when I've been in those environments particularly as a ring girl I found myself playing up the stereotype and acting the airhead as I knew thats what they wanted if that makes any sense? I hated myself for doing it but it was actually hard not to as I knew to them that would make me the "perfect" woman, good body but not a threat intellectually?
Ive probably proved them right with that jumble of thoughts!

SauceForTheGander · 26/01/2015 16:28

Bazoo you sound great - please don't feel in objecting to a newspaper using images of young topless women means I'm objecting to or judging the women as individuals.

It's the context of it being in a newspaper that children see & are advertised to in. Save the Children recently ran a Reading to your child campaign via The Sun - it's promotes itself as a family paper & Disney advertise on its front page to draw in kids. So better that page 3 is devoted to news rather than a page to give the men a quick thrill.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 16:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 16:43

Sorry for using this thread as therapy everyone! its just been enlightening to think certain things through that I haven't before.
I met my now fiancee that way (ex cage fighter the clichés just keep coming!) and automatically went into bimbo mode talking to him and he HATES it! It made him cringe and that's what snapped me out of it. But its a hard habit to break.
Do you think on page 3 the quotes where the model gives her view on a topical issue are really just taking the piss?
IME one of the guys at the event would say for example "who you voting for Bazoo" and they would smirk at each other as I answered... Bloody hell its horrible really!!

HeeHiles · 26/01/2015 16:46

Have you seen this Bazoo? helps to explain things visually about the images the sun portray and the messages it puts out.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 26/01/2015 16:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HeeHiles · 26/01/2015 16:59

No absolutely page 3 shouldn't be everywhere but to be honest young children/teens shouldn't be reading the sun theres a lot in there more disturbing than a pair of breasts!

That's the problem though - you don't need to buy it - As I pointed out it's a newspaper so gets left on bus seats, tubes, cafe and libraries. I have never bought it but still see it everywhere, as do my dd's.

I wouldn't buy a calendar featuring half naked men or women and then tut tut about seeing breasts - each to their own - its about the context, why is it in a newspaper where it can be visible to anyone.

I know Pirelli calendars exist - never actually seen one because it will be on a wall somewhere, not on the bus seat I choose to sit on!

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 17:48

Bazoo, I also don't think you are an airhead.

If p3 didn't exist, no doubt there'd be other rourtes to glamour modelling just as , I dunno, you can still work in the travel industry though there are fewer high street travel agents now. All industries change.

No one would send in playboy or whatever to a school art lesson, but it has happened with the Sun.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 17:50

...meaning sometimes young children do see it - or maybe someone is reading it in a mc Donald's or at soft play.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 26/01/2015 18:13

Bazoo, I'm really sorry if you felt that I was trying to shame you. I feel really bad now, if that is how you took my post. I was just trying to show you the difference between Pg3 and the kinds of modelling you had done is the context.

I see that others have explained what I meant much more clearly now.

You're not an airhead, neither are a lot of the girls who have done Pg3. One of whom has gone on to have a great career at a law firm a relative works at. The only problem is that, once some of the people she works with found out that she had modeled on Pg3, they got hold of the pictures, blew them up, copied them, made jokes, because sadly, it's not feminists who think that glamour models are airheads. It's the target audience that does.

Bazoo23 · 26/01/2015 19:57

No its ok its actually been a really interesting thread definitely made me think about things in a different way...I'm not ashamed of the charity calendar but some of the promo stuff was a bit sleazy, although I never did topless or anything more (or less!) than underwear/bikini.
At the time I felt I had the power over them but really they were paying me to show my body? Very strange when you peel it back.
Maybe page 3 girls feel the same about the power thing, it is an addictive feeling.

SauceForTheGander · 27/01/2015 09:52

I imagine when you're a page 3 girl & you're getting validation for who you are from men in positions of power (newspaper owners, editors) & you're making money then it makes you feel powerful too. The bottom line is the real power is held by the men in suits and not the women in their pants - the women are interchangeable every day. The PR man, the Editor & the newspaper owner Murdoch - they don't change. It's a fleeting power & it's only because you're doing what men want you to do - that's be attractive & semi naked.

I love this article - I am so impressed with this journalist scotsman article Page 3

PetulaGordino · 27/01/2015 09:57

Bazoo thanks for your posts, you've made me think about things from another viewpoint too

SauceForTheGander · 27/01/2015 11:32

Yes ditto Petula

emcwill74 · 27/01/2015 13:22

When Lucy Collett won page 3 idol a couple of years ago, The Sun did an interview with her and she said (I would quote directly but Sun articles are pay wall now) that she realised at around 13 that men were staring at her boobs and thought to herself 'this could be good'. What is interesting about this is that the article also mentioned her parents having separated. It's a well-known fact that Collett cut herself once upon a time, some of her pics show the scars, so she obviously struggled through the teen years. Now I'm not having a go at any parents who don't make it together here, or saying kids of single-parent households are necessarily damaged, but putting the factors together about Collett's life, it really isn't hard to imagine that she had issues related to her family life, and that she confused the stares from strangers as filling an emotional gap in her life. I do wonder if this isn't the case for a lot of 'glamour' models, and why they are so insistent it is empowering and they love it. I hope that makes sense.

Mengog · 27/01/2015 18:09

Her brother was murdered when she was 13, which may have been more of a factor than parents separation.

Some people love attention. Facebook is a perfect example of that. Sexually suggestive pictures from loads of people looking for validation through likes.

Thinking about it even as a man, if I was asked to pose naked for a magazine or paper, I would probably do it. If people commented about how good I looked, naturally it would be a confidence boost. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with that.

Lioninthesun · 27/01/2015 18:38

memgog have you even read the last page of this thread? If you CBA then perhaps a few posts back Sauceforthegander 's post could help clarify.

AskBasil · 27/01/2015 19:24

Yes Mengog, but you know that you are valued for other stuff than your body.

Whereas women aren't.

That's why it's different for you