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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 01/02/2014 08:15

The question that rhinoceer is evading is;

Is having sex for money a job like any other?

Rhinoceer, why not just answer? Taking what you say about benefits (that they should not be withdrawn from someone who refuses to accept to have sex for money), clearly you do not think having sex for money is a job like any other.

There now, that wasn't so hard really was it...?

Right, so now we have established that having sex for money is not like any other job, maybe we could think about why and why that makes AIs position misogynistic and inhumane.

I'll go first.

  1. Because the selling and buying of sex is overwhelmingly gendered with men doing the punting, the pimping, and the trafficking and girls and women providing the bodies for the sex.
NumptyNameChange · 01/02/2014 08:48

if it is wrong to make a woman subject herself to being fucked for money but sleazy men or lose her benefits it is an acknowledgment that there is something fundamentally wrong about prostitution in a way that no other paid work is seen as wrong.

why would we legalise the exploitation of prostituted women and call it a legitimate business if we are wholeheartedly in agreement that it's something no woman should ever be made to do?

do you think that that business model would work IF the only women who ever worked in it were happy clappy sex workers who positively wanted to do it, who did it because it was their childhood dream of what they wanted to be when they grew up or only women who'd rather do that than stack shelves or be a care worker?

clearly the demand would totally outstrip the supply. hence the desperation of brothels in wanting to be allowed to advertise in job centres and basically threatening to 'buy' women from slave sellers if they don't get their own way.

is the logic of all this getting through?

there are not enough women who WANT to be prostituted to make prostitution EVER be a legitimate business or something to be legal because the ONLY way pimps can get enough supply to meet demand is through coercion, trafficking, exploitation of vulnerable teenagers, exploitation of drug addicts etc.

i struggle to see why this is unclear.

a business runs on supplying to demand - you have to have enough to sell to meet that demand. the supply of women who joyfully, willingly CHOOSE to be fucked by punters is never, never, never going to match the levels of sleazy punters wanting women to fuck. ergo prositution will always have to rely on coercion and slavery.

NumptyNameChange · 01/02/2014 08:52

the reality has to be that getting it legalised would have to be just the beginning - they would lobby and lobby to then be allowed to recruit, to use fear of benefit sanctions, to deliver propaganda and change the social view, etc. it is the only way they'd be able to provide for the demand if they couldn't find enough drug addicts and abused children and trafficked women to profit from. and with it legal and inspections presumably they wouldn't be allowed to use drug addicts and abuse victims in states of ptsd. not in the 'legal' brothel anyway - the exact same women would be working illegally in the exact same conditions without any protection at all. the legal brothel in any sane fair world would be empty because no healthy person, or very few, would be willing to work there.

Beachcomber · 01/02/2014 08:54

Well said numptynamechange.

NumptyNameChange · 01/02/2014 08:56

i think in reality the only reason that the worlds pimps are wanting it legalised is because they're struggling to recruit enough women in the western world.

they're not desperate to pay taxes and fill out paperwork - they're desperate to promote prostitution as a legitimate for of state sanctioned work so that they can use the state aparatus to recruit women.

sorry for thread hogging multiple posting btw.

NumptyNameChange · 01/02/2014 08:59

put really simply:

SUPPLY = vulnerable, desperate, marginalised women and girls plus a few women who love it and choose to do it.

DEMAND = scarily huge numbers of men who want to pay for sex.

take out the vulnerable, desperate, marginalised and enslaved side of supply and you're left with a fucking huge deficit that newly 'legitimate' businessmen are going to want to fill. if you don't want your granddaughters fucking for minimum wage i'd advise not supporting the legalisation of prostitution.

msrisotto · 01/02/2014 09:00

If it is a business/profession like any other, shall we have it as an option for work experience? Teach it at school. What about higher education? College courses on hairdressing, mechanics, prostitution, why not eh?

NumptyNameChange · 01/02/2014 09:01

could someone good on computers make a graphic for that supply/demand info?

Beachcomber · 01/02/2014 09:22

Yes. And we know that when you make pimping and punting legal legitimate activities, more men engage in them. And the demand for girls and women's bodies increases.

And you normalize prostitution. You normalize one section of society buying sexual access to another. And you worsen the already bad environment of systematic, structured subjugation of women by men.

Women are human. We need jobs and freedom from social injustice. These are the rights AI should be concerned with; not our "right" to be sexually exploited and abused as our only way of feeding society's children.

doorkeeper · 01/02/2014 10:44

One of the things that I get frustrated about in the general media reports of this issue is the authority given to "sex worker organisations". Pimps and pimp businesses, for political reason, also call themselves "sex workers". So "sex worker unions" and "sex worker advocacy groups" are not necessarily the idyllic organisations of women workers joining together in sisterly solidarity you might hope they are, but instead are cynical men and women who make money from selling other people, using this to lobby for their own benefit.

I emailed Amnesty, detailing the support I have given them over many, many years, but they replied that I'd have to give them more money and join in order to contribute to the consultation. Why? I don't want to go to the AGM. I just want to be able to submit a letter like anyone else. Plus, despite my support (political and financial) that I've given them in the past, there's no way I could stomach giving them another penny while they are behaving like this.

And this "we're just at the consultation business" is bullshit, IMO. The leaked draft makes it very clear where they want to go with this.

Grennie · 01/02/2014 10:45

Amnesty International are denying that ISWU were involved in drafting their policy. Not true, they were involved in the original motion in 2008 which led to this, and was passed in amended form. But they say openly they worked with "sex worker" organisations to draw up their policy, but won't say which one.

Unless they say, the only conclusion is they worked with a pimp sponsored organisation and now don't want to say so publically.

Grennie · 01/02/2014 10:46

And who leaked the prostitution policy and to what purpose? Amnesty themselves?

NumptyNameChange · 01/02/2014 10:48

imagine growing up in a world where prostitution was seen as legal, legitimate work and girls walk past brothels to get to school? it's bad enough growing up with images of breasts being leered at everywhere you turn without growing up with the outright message that you are a fuck object to be bought with government approval.

ParsleyTheLioness · 01/02/2014 11:04

Very dissapointed in AI. Suprised they have even the resources to devote to this, bearing in mind all the other campaigns they could have taken on.

Beachcomber · 01/02/2014 11:07

Statement from AI.

www.amnesty.org.uk/douglas-fox#.UuzTqlY1hcs

Are we really expected to believe that a policy proposal that reads like it was written by a pimp lobby (the overuse of the word "empowerment" is a dead giveaway) is totally unrelated to a very similar proposal that was introduced to AI by pimp Douglas Fox in 2008?

Beachcomber · 01/02/2014 11:18

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/stormont-witnesses-deny-links-to-pimps-1-5847318

Grainne Teggart of Amnesty International opposed the bill, saying much more research was needed about sex workers’ needs.

DUP MLA Jim Wells read from a recent press report which revealed that Amnesty’s new policy document argues in favour of legalised prostitution. But Ms Teggart said it was a draft document only and “marks the beginning of a very detailed consultation” with its members.

Mr Wells said that a leading English pimp, Douglas Fox, was a member of Amnesty who successfully had a resolution passed at Amnesty’s AGM in 2008, calling for the organisation to campaign for legalised prostitution.

“So you allowed the largest pimp in the north west of England to have input into your policy document,” he said.

Ms Teggart insisted Mr Fox’s resolution had been rejected but Mr Wells said it had been passed in amended form.

He noted an email from Amnesty NI director Patrick Corrigan in 2009 explaining Mr Fox’s role in Amnesty. But Ms Teggart insisted Mr Corrigan had not known Mr Fox was a pimp at that time.

DonkeySkin · 01/02/2014 11:45

Yes, doorkeeper, pimps have realised that 'sex worker unions' are their best lobbying strategy.

And the frustrating thing about it is that journalists are almost always very incurious about the make-up of these groups - they just take them at their word that they are speaking as the representatives of people in prostitution.

Whereas when anyone subjects them to any scrutiny, it's laughably obvious that none of these groups in any way resemble unions - their membership numbers are tiny, and very often include bosses (pimps) as well as workers (prostitutes), and they NEVER lobby for anything that would benefit workers over the bosses. Quite the opposite - they spend their time arguing for fewer restrictions on what bosses can do, how they can more easily exploit workers, etc.

In Australia we have the Scarlet Alliance, which represents itself as the 'peak body' (not a union as such) representing sex workers in Australia. They are quoted in almost EVERY article to do with prostitution in Australia, and, whatever the issue, their rhetoric is always the same.

Murder or rape of a prostituted woman? The Scarlet Alliance says the solution is complete decriminalisation, which would reduce stigma, which (not misogyny) is what allegedly caused the man to murder or rape her.

Trafficked women? Well, according to the Scarlet Alliance this hardly ever happens, and they would prefer to call them 'sex workers with debt stress', but complete decrim would mean more women could do it legally, which would reduce the (very rare, and entirely media-hyped) incidences of trafficking.

Should Australia introduce laws prosecuting men who buy sex from (i.e., rape) trafficked women? Oh no, says the Scarlet Alliance, these men are not rapists of enslaved women, they are their best hope for getting out, their knights in shining armour.

Should Victoria introduce police raids on brothels, to check whether they are imprisoning trafficked women? Definitely not, says the Scarlett Alliance, this contributes to stigma around sex work, which is the real source of the danger, and most sex workers would prefer to avoid the police, who are sometimes violent towards them. The only solution is to keep law enforcement as far away from brothels as possible.

Should NSW introduce police background checks for people who want to open brothels, to stop criminals, including those who have been convicted of trafficking offences, from opening them? No, says the Scarlet Alliance, this would be an undue burden on legal business people, who are just trying to run an honest business, and we're not pimp advocates, honestly.

They do NOTHING BUT advocate for bosses' and johns' rights over measures that would make vulnerable prostituted people marginally safer, yet AFAIK no journalist has ever asked them how many members they have, or what their funding structure is.

NumptyNameChange · 01/02/2014 11:51

can safely say that the crack addicted prostituted women i see in my town in middle england don't look like they have the time or energy for lobbying and if anyone was going to lobby on their behalf i can think of a zillion more urgent things to lobby for than the decriminalisation of the arseholes who want to fuck them for a tenner when they can clearly see they are on death's door.

horsetowater · 01/02/2014 12:00

Here's a petition to sign

www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/amnesty-international-we-demand-amnesty-international-listen-to-survivors-and-reject-the-proposal-to-decriminalize-all-aspects-of-prostitution

Enter 0 into the payment box if you don't want to donate.

DonkeySkin · 01/02/2014 12:01

Beachcomber -

The process that led to the draft policy began in April 2012 at Amnesty's international headquarters rooted in our experience of work conducted during our Stop Violence Against Women campaign

Ugh. Their policy that states men have a human right to the sexual use of other people's bodies was rooted in their work on violence against women? They make me SICK.

Beachcomber · 01/02/2014 12:25

Me too DonkeySkin. It is sickening.

So much in agreement with above posts by you and numptynamechange.

doorkeeper · 01/02/2014 12:33

Is anyone here an Amnesty member, and planning to go to the AGM in Edinburgh? (I can't.)

Beachcomber · 01/02/2014 12:36

And this is why the whole 'sex worker' terminology that AI are embracing is so pernicious - it is a con and a cover up as it allows pimps to act like they speak for prostitutes. It allows men to speak for women.

Take Douglas Fox for example, he is constantly silencing women on the subject of prostitution (which concerns all of us who belong to the sex class, AKA woman) with his mealy mouthed 'I'm a sex worker, you are not, therefore you have no right to an opinion'.

Fuck off pimps and traffickers, you do not speak for those you exploit and abuse. I can't believe so many are taken in by this.

doorkeeper · 01/02/2014 12:43

Exactly, Beachcomber. And for all Amnesty are going "Mr Fox had no input", Mr Fox certainly seems to think he did.

On the "you aren't a sex worker, so you can't speak on this issue": I don't know what they are like now, but in the 80s and 90s, one of the pro-prostitution groups who are now very actively promoting themselves as the legit voice of sex workers, the English Collective of Prostitutes, were largely (though not entirely) women who had never worked in the sex industry - which made actual prostitutes very cross, especially when the ECP did that stunt in the Kings Cross church. This does not give me much confidence in their current advocacy role.

grimbletart · 01/02/2014 12:51

Has the odious Mr Fox never heard the term "conflict of interest"?

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