Y1 child very gifted at Maths

[ILJG]

Hi,

Writing here in the hopes of getting some guidance on how best to approach the situation of our son abilities in Maths. We live in the UK and DS just started on Y1 this term. He was born late June 2016, so on the youngest side of his class. Just to explain at what level his Maths are, after an half term on Y1 he can menthally do things like:

• add and subtract numbers up to at least 10,000;
• knows numbers up to the trillions;
• do complex multiplications, like calculate 15 to the power of 3 (15x15x15);
• does divisions and simple square roots;
• knows timetables up to 12, to the point that does 60s time attacks on doodle timetable with at least 15 answers, all correct;
• he understands the concept on infinity. Once I asked him what a number divided by infinite would be, and he not only gave me right answer, he also explained how he deducted it;
• his teacher recentelly taught him prime factorization, 2 days after that I asked him if he could determine the prime factors of 540, and it took him about 20sec on his way to school to do it menthally;
• and yeah, ha knows what a prime number is;
• the speed that he learns new Maths related things is staggering. He just understands the concept behind it, sometimes wiithout the need to give written examples. I taught him successfully negative numbers in about 10sec;
• and I could go on...

So, he has some serious brain horsepower when it comes to Maths. He loves all things that are logic based, and this was all mainly led by himself. He really enjoys Maths, likes to watch Maths related stuff on Youtube, loves all sorts of STEM toys too. On all other areas of learning he appears to be remarkably average. He is socially well adjusted, has plenty of friends and loves school.

In class his teacher is giving him some extra Maths work for DS to feel challenged, which is a good thing. However, it appears to be without any "structure" to it, just some random Y4, Y5 or Y6 subjects that teacher thinks will keep DS busy. Teacher must also not be too sure on how much DS knows, and since his "home learning" so far did not follow any formal structure, DS definitely has some basic knowledge gaps. For example, he can add numbers up 10,000 mentally, but he doesn't know how to do it in a piece of paper.

Both me and my wife were quite acomplished academically in Maths, both top of class, myself more naturally gifted, mom relying more on grit and work ethics. We both have Masters degrees in a related area. We came to the UK less then a decade ago and DS is our first child. He always realized he was quite able, after all we did teach him a few things when he asks about them, but only in lockdown during reception did we realized how far advanced he was in relation to his peers. At the time we sought advice from school on if we should stimulate this further or not, and they just said to continue to do the same. And so we have been doing, at his own pace. But being perfectly honest, it is becoming very disconcerting to see a 5 year old doing maths often quicker than his very accomplished mom, and with a speed not far from my own.

The main driver for this post is that both me and my wife had no contact with UK school system until now, so we are a bit unsure on the best way forward. The teacher his willing to give him extra work, however we feel it may be good to try to baseline his current level of knowledge to assist in developing a more structured learning plan. I read online we can get him tested by an education psichologist, but what sort of result will we get from it? Surely it will measure his ability, IQ, but will it identify learning gaps on specific maths topics? Also, how should the school assist? They have an appointed SENco, however online I find mixed answers on if this person is the best route for getting the necessary support for a gifted child? There are also council educational psichologists, shall we give it a go at that? We just had our parents evening and teacher mentioned Potential Plus UK as well. Pretty hefty fees in their assessments though, but we may be willing if its worth it, did anyone used their services that can offer some insight? And apart from the obvious short term benefits of getting the assessment report, on a longer term is there any benefit in having this certificate for ingress in schools in the future, etc? What about thoughts on joining Mensa? Any other advice on how best to take advantage of DS amazing ability?

Thanks a lot in advance

@HalloweenScrooge

That’s as may be - but when I have been in the classroom (as a parent and also as a governor) there is usually a standard set of work, and then an extension/challenge task. If all work is completed then children are often asked to peer coach. On this thread we are talking about a child with extreme difference in learning ability (for now, at least). It is feasible for a school to set some greater depth work, and some additional tasks, but probably not feasible for your average state primary to set a whole different learning programme for one child. That kind of enrichment is an extra curricular thing IMO.

But if we view school through the lens of the real world and the workplace then it’s reasonable to assume peer coaching, leadership, group work are all things that will crop up.

At school I was the ‘gifted’ child, but pretty much across the board. I was top of my class from year 1 to year 13 and didn’t really meet any true comparators until university (which incidentally was probably my most uncomfortable time, suddenly not being the cleverest or the quickest all the time).

Nowadays at work I spend a lot of my time in a highly collaborative environment and have to spend a huge amount of time getting everyone on the same page in order to progress. My colleagues are far from stupid but we all have different backgrounds and I’m considerably more academic than many of them. Even if the answer is blindingly obvious to me, it won’t be to all, and coaching people to the right answer is a big skill of mine. I rely most on the skills developed teaching undergraduate students physics as a PhD student in my day to day work, and am a frequently requested facilitator as a result. My academic ability is very much secondary and is useless if I can’t get my team and senior leadership to come with me on a solution.

So this is why I am nurturing my children holistically, but particularly building on the skills they don’t excel in. When we do do extra maths at home we use it in a very applied way and always focus on the methodology. I’m far more interested in how they might work something out than knowing the right answer to something.

What a thoroughly sane post.

@ILJG right! And it’s a difficult skill to learn, which is why it’s important to work on reasoning over the answer. And actually because maths is really so very much easier if you understand how all of the numbers are related to each other. It gives you so many short cuts. And I love being able to do percentages quickly, it’s really neat to be able to do that in a business context.

So I’d do the Ed psych bit, and if you can find a tutor who is a ‘greater depth’ primary maths teacher (I have a friend who is one) that would be excellent. But I think maybe you’re not looking for tutoring for him, but rather an approach to follow as a family. Knowing what to do with him to allow him to reach his full potential.

You could look up the sad story of Ruth Lawrence who galloped ahead too fast and graduated aged 13! (Due to her pushy father, I'm not trying to say that you are that pushy parent.
What is sad about Ruth Lawrence?

I did my maths gcse very early 12 and got my A grade as I turned 13 after results day. At 14 I got an a grade for a level maths and then further maths at age15. It did not do me any harm!

Ruth Lawrence is a gifted mathematician happy married and got a 1st in two degrees and a phd she is happy and well adjusted. Please don’t listen to people who make comments without knowing her (I do) that’s rude and offensive.

My daughter is gifted got a level 9 at maths gcse at aged 13 (could have done it at 12 but due to lockdown she didn’t) she’s doing a level
Aged 14. Yes it was a massive massive fight at state schools. I wish I had entered her (she’s level 9 across the board and doing 5 GCSEs early in year 10) to an independent grammar but she’s happy and thriving at the local
Outstanding state school. Would she be happy at the local nationally renown independent school yes, but we relocated suddenly and it wasn’t the right move. Highly likely she might decide to go their for a level but either way it’s her choice.

Personally I’d get him some ks1 past papers and she what mark he gets - if it’s high (95% plus) I’d do the ks2 maths past papers and so on until you find the level he is.

Daughter now has 1-2-1 weekly with head of maths to challenge her.

Feel free to pm me as I taught her the gcse and now teaching her the a level.

Lots of green eyes people around and lots of lack of understanding about gifted students

Hello op you have been given plenty of helpful advice here. I have a maths obsessed teenager, he has been gifted at maths throughout school though not to the extent your ds appears to be. DS is currently taking A level maths / further maths, Physics and Classics , he is doing an EPQ on a maths topic, he has just taken the MAT as he is applying to Oxford, he entered a maths essay competition last year and has taken part in the maths Olympiads over the last few years.

He needed time to mature and for the right support to be in place for him to be able to fully participate in all these opportunities as he is autistic. He also still struggles with writing down all the steps to the answers when he is in an exam, he sometimes uses different methods to what he is taught because they make more sense to him. So he has regularly struggled to fit the requirements of his curriculum but this has not ultimately held him back.

Maths is a subject that can be stretched beyond the school curriculum but be prepared to help your son "reign in" so he can tick the boxes to get through each stage at school. You know your son best just support him and listen to him he will tell you what he needs.

@Gardenlass

You could look up the sad story of Ruth Lawrence who galloped ahead too fast and graduated aged 13! (Due to her pushy father, I'm not trying to say that you are that pushy parent. What is sad about Ruth Lawrence?

I believe she led a perfectly happy adult life. But DH was at Oxford same time as her - but started as an 18 year old - and recalls seeing her cycling around with her dad. He wondered if she missed something of the experience he had (still got a First, still did a Phd, post doc etc and still became an expert in his narrow field while also having a good time). Dunno. It may be horses for courses and perhaps she was perfectly happy those three years.

Thank you all for your views. Think we have the starting of a plan on how to go about this. First step will be an assessment, and school wise we have a couple of ideas. May bother some if you via PM for more detailed guidance.

There have been many comments already and a few of them are very good but some aren't.

I too have an able child. Although, she didn't show many signs until year 2, since then she had competed in a few Maths competitions and gained very good results. Most recently in year 4, she took an Olympiad competition meant for year 11-13 girls and outperformed quite a lot of them. The sad thing is her school does not recognise that she is ahead of her peers. She still has to do times tables tests, learning to add/subtract 3 digit numbers. I even offered to provide her with extra work and marked it for them but they refused.

I think you will be fighting a losing battle unless you are very lucky. Schools will have no problem accommodating a child who is good at sport or music but make it almost impossible for the academically able kids.

Get him a Turing tumble and get him doing puzzles.

Consider the ukmt too

@GHGN, that must be very frustrating. It would be great to have school continuing to collaborate. Its quite unfair if they don't as you say.

@JuneOsborne, have one on its way already. If I'm perfectly honest, think I'm gonna play with it as well

Your son sounds very gifted @ILJG

As he doesn’t for now appear to be gifted across the board, I think that makes things easier for you.

1. For now, he is probably not a good candidate for radical grade acceleration and so focussing on allowing him to move at his own intellectual pace for maths is best. This will probably be done outside of school primarily like it would be for an extremely talented athlete or musician. People have already provided great resources on this. You can also teach him yourself without a tutor but do come up with some structure for what you are doing.
2. I would look at the national curriculum for math and check for any gaps in his knowledge yourself. Does he understand fractions, geometry and measurement at the same level as arithmetic? It’s important to close any gaps in his understanding
3. See if school will allow him to do independent study during maths lessons. That’s probably the best outcome. If he’s not gifted beyond maths, he’ll get plenty of challenge in his other subjects and so shouldn’t be bored the vast majority of the time. This means learning study skills etc will come despite his ability in math which is one less thing to worry about!
4. Ignore comments about ASD if he has no signs! Most gifted children are actually neurotypical and socially well-adjusted.
5. Personally I wouldn’t bother with IQ testing until he is at least 6 when scores are more stable. In very young children test scores are highly unstable when assessing giftedness. Just give him a bit more time to develop and support his interest in math in a way that’s fun for all of you but do support it and ensure he continues to learn outside of school

Best of luck!

@LondonGirl83, thanks for your feedback. To try to identify any gaps we have asked school for a Keymath3 assessment. We are now also using Beast academy at home, and we had him starting from scratch. We already spotted a couple of things he was unsure of, so the approach appears to be working :) He definitely does not know all other maths subjects as well as arithmetic's. We asked school if they would mind him carrying a Beast academy book for the differentiated work, awaiting on a response.

I just wanted to thank you @ILJG for posting. I also have a bright son in year 1. It's a little different to your son in that he's more of an all-rounder (taught himself to read before school, can spell really well despite minimal interest in writing) and not as talented at maths - although I've yet to find his ceiling. I'm not so worried about reading/writing as the same task can be approached by the child according to their level of ability. But maths seems a huge issue - the things they are covering he could already do before starting nursery.

I have my first parents meeting with his teacher next week - after reading these posts I feel I should be advocating for my son. But what do I ask for? I had the idea of providing a workbook geared to his level and as he's a good reader he could get on with it alone. However, I see some posters saying their child's school refused this. It's stressing me out - but it seems unfair to expect a child to be learning nothing at school for potentially years? It's not really possible to talk to people in real life about it.

@Anyother, thanks for your post. I'm yet to get a response from school in regards to using a Beast Academy book. Teacher was off for most of the week (suspect due to COVID) and replacement teacher didn't bother giving my son differentiated work. Guess will get a response sometime next week when his teacher comes back, will keep you posted.

One another matter, did email schools SENCo in regards to assessment via council or KeyMath3 assessment by the schooll and got a negative response to both...

Sadly I'm unsurprised that your enquiries were met with negativity....though I'm sorry to hear it. In my experience the school system was simply not able to educate my son appropriately. (By their own admission)
The trouble is with extension work is that if they go too far ahead of the class in general it just doesn't work. I am in no way criticising teachers by the way it's just the way the system is.
I would keep persevering though, and as I said before private assessment would help to determine where your son is working and what his capabilities might be and you can take it from there.
I would definitely agree that it's hard to talk about in real life too. Any hint and it's seen as boasting, when all we want is what's best for our children.

extrastrongmints

yes, keymath3 can be done by school but they have to have the test kit, which costs a few hundred. Some schools will, some won't.

Regarding the statements made by senua above, you will find exactly these statements in the book I linked above, in "Chapter 1: Excuses for not developing mathematical talent".

Denis said something like ‘look what happened to Ruth Lawrence’ She is fine, a Mathematica professor, and married with children.

Just as an aside, who helped him review his work in the photos you posted? He's got one wrong answer (no problem, he's phenomenol!!) but the correction to his answer is also wrong. So someone needs to help him when he does make an error.

@Lougle, it was his teacher. I did spot that straight away as well. But so far it was the only mistake I found in the corrections. Everyone is entitled to an error every now and then

@ScrollingLeaves

extrastrongmints

yes, keymath3 can be done by school but they have to have the test kit, which costs a few hundred. Some schools will, some won't.

Regarding the statements made by senua above, you will find exactly these statements in the book I linked above, in "Chapter 1: Excuses for not developing mathematical talent".

Denis said something like ‘look what happened to Ruth Lawrence’ She is fine, a Mathematica professor, and married with children.

All true. But DH is also a professor and married with children, but didn't miss out on a bit of fun at Oxford too (was there the same time as Ruth L and recalls seeing her cycle round with her dad). My point is that maybe she would have got there anyway and accelerating only meant she missed bits of her life and development which are really rather fun and good.

“Shallswim
My point is that maybe she would have got there anyway and accelerating only meant she missed bits of her life and development which are really rather fun and good.“

I do see what you mean. I thought it was being implied that her life had been a disaster.

The real question is, is it jus mathematics or is it a variety of subjects? i.e. do they have a flair for STEM subjects so far, i.e. interest in computing, building, technology alongside the mathematics is something you need to explore. Because being gifted in one subject is different to being gifted i.e. naturally excelling and talented at all, an IQ test, Educational psychologist report and other assessments should be able to indicate exactly where they excel. At my school in primary from 2003-10 most children could do what you are stating by year 2 and could write full stories, read books to year 6 level, French and sign language knowledge, know how to use computers, excelled in sports or other. They may be gifted in relation to their schools overall abilities but in comparison to country and all-round abilities how do they fair.

Get him a private tutor to start going through the GCSE maths syllabus with him, or if that's too far ahead, start on the early Key stage 3 syllabus and work up to the GCSE syllabus.

Then enter him privately to take GCSEs maths.

Next do the same for A levels in all the flavours of maths.

Then you can sign him up to do university courses he can study online at a distance. Either through a MOOC like Coursera or EdX or through a university that does online learning.

Let him do all this at a reasonable pace, so if he wants to take 3 years to do the GCSE then all well and good, if he thinks he can do it in one then why not, as long as it doesn't stop him doing other schoolwork and taking part in things like social and extra curricular activities.

Getting through that he can also do online masters courses.

That should keep him busy for a few years!

I think this would be beneficial as an after school or Saturday school activity, to allow him to still continue normal social development, making friends with peers and taking part in all the fun things kids do growing up.

@ScrollingLeaves

“Shallswim My point is that maybe she would have got there anyway and accelerating only meant she missed bits of her life and development which are really rather fun and good.“

I do see what you mean. I thought it was being implied that her life had been a disaster.

Thanks - didn't want to be lumped into that mindset! It is far more subtle than that

Interesting post.

Bright DD here, state school and we are very lucky by the sounds of it. They have assessed her from reception, 100% in Year II SATS, to try and find gaps and just kept giving assessments until they found gaps. She is better at mental maths than shape, maths language etc. She gets work from the year above in classes, special workbooks and enrichment from Nrich. The fact she is able to do these independently / with minimal teacher class time is down to her ability to read well above her level too so focus on that. Where she shows an interest in something, they will send her off to whatever class is doing that topic in school.

Teaching resilience via sport, musical instruments....don't just focus on maths. As someone who was 'the clever one' at school I struggled at university when my world was expanded. Not to the point of mental health issues but I needed to up my game to keep up and succeed.

@halloweenie13

The real question is, is it jus mathematics or is it a variety of subjects? i.e. do they have a flair for STEM subjects so far, i.e. interest in computing, building, technology alongside the mathematics is something you need to explore. Because being gifted in one subject is different to being gifted i.e. naturally excelling and talented at all, an IQ test, Educational psychologist report and other assessments should be able to indicate exactly where they excel. At my school in primary from 2003-10 most children could do what you are stating by year 2 and could write full stories, read books to year 6 level, French and sign language knowledge, know how to use computers, excelled in sports or other. They may be gifted in relation to their schools overall abilities but in comparison to country and all-round abilities how do they fair.

Was your primary school in the middle of all the Cambridge colleges where all the children belong to Cambridge lecturers? So most children can " do complex multiplications, like calculate 15 to the power of 3 (15x15x15);

• does divisions and simple square roots;
• knows timetables up to 12, to the point that does 60s time attacks on doodle timetable with at least 15 answers, all correct"?

There are always someone that turns up and try some made up story. I teach in top end selective schools all my teaching life and most of kids turn up in year 7 can't do all of what the op described.