Y1 child very gifted at Maths

[ILJG]

Hi,

Writing here in the hopes of getting some guidance on how best to approach the situation of our son abilities in Maths. We live in the UK and DS just started on Y1 this term. He was born late June 2016, so on the youngest side of his class. Just to explain at what level his Maths are, after an half term on Y1 he can menthally do things like:

• add and subtract numbers up to at least 10,000;
• knows numbers up to the trillions;
• do complex multiplications, like calculate 15 to the power of 3 (15x15x15);
• does divisions and simple square roots;
• knows timetables up to 12, to the point that does 60s time attacks on doodle timetable with at least 15 answers, all correct;
• he understands the concept on infinity. Once I asked him what a number divided by infinite would be, and he not only gave me right answer, he also explained how he deducted it;
• his teacher recentelly taught him prime factorization, 2 days after that I asked him if he could determine the prime factors of 540, and it took him about 20sec on his way to school to do it menthally;
• and yeah, ha knows what a prime number is;
• the speed that he learns new Maths related things is staggering. He just understands the concept behind it, sometimes wiithout the need to give written examples. I taught him successfully negative numbers in about 10sec;
• and I could go on...

So, he has some serious brain horsepower when it comes to Maths. He loves all things that are logic based, and this was all mainly led by himself. He really enjoys Maths, likes to watch Maths related stuff on Youtube, loves all sorts of STEM toys too. On all other areas of learning he appears to be remarkably average. He is socially well adjusted, has plenty of friends and loves school.

In class his teacher is giving him some extra Maths work for DS to feel challenged, which is a good thing. However, it appears to be without any "structure" to it, just some random Y4, Y5 or Y6 subjects that teacher thinks will keep DS busy. Teacher must also not be too sure on how much DS knows, and since his "home learning" so far did not follow any formal structure, DS definitely has some basic knowledge gaps. For example, he can add numbers up 10,000 mentally, but he doesn't know how to do it in a piece of paper.

Both me and my wife were quite acomplished academically in Maths, both top of class, myself more naturally gifted, mom relying more on grit and work ethics. We both have Masters degrees in a related area. We came to the UK less then a decade ago and DS is our first child. He always realized he was quite able, after all we did teach him a few things when he asks about them, but only in lockdown during reception did we realized how far advanced he was in relation to his peers. At the time we sought advice from school on if we should stimulate this further or not, and they just said to continue to do the same. And so we have been doing, at his own pace. But being perfectly honest, it is becoming very disconcerting to see a 5 year old doing maths often quicker than his very accomplished mom, and with a speed not far from my own.

The main driver for this post is that both me and my wife had no contact with UK school system until now, so we are a bit unsure on the best way forward. The teacher his willing to give him extra work, however we feel it may be good to try to baseline his current level of knowledge to assist in developing a more structured learning plan. I read online we can get him tested by an education psichologist, but what sort of result will we get from it? Surely it will measure his ability, IQ, but will it identify learning gaps on specific maths topics? Also, how should the school assist? They have an appointed SENco, however online I find mixed answers on if this person is the best route for getting the necessary support for a gifted child? There are also council educational psichologists, shall we give it a go at that? We just had our parents evening and teacher mentioned Potential Plus UK as well. Pretty hefty fees in their assessments though, but we may be willing if its worth it, did anyone used their services that can offer some insight? And apart from the obvious short term benefits of getting the assessment report, on a longer term is there any benefit in having this certificate for ingress in schools in the future, etc? What about thoughts on joining Mensa? Any other advice on how best to take advantage of DS amazing ability?

Thanks a lot in advance

Haha finally a post about a gifted kid who is clearly actually very gifted!

Is he an only child?

He sounds amazing.

Trolls haha no, he’s not an only child! Super nice but quite bemused parents!

@TrollsAreSaddos, he is, yes

@WorkingItOutAsIGo, not sure from where you think he has siblings, he doesnt, he's our only child. As for the bemusement, guilty as charged eh eh

He does sound amazing! You must be very proud!

It sounds like you are already doing a great job.

Schools are not best able to push due to resources. Some private ones can be better. Check out schools in your area and see if any do scholarships at 7+

Suggest you get a maths tutor to help with building blocks, show working etc. once you have his assessment and then he can progress from there and at least be challenged. Don’t waste his talents.

In the classroom, if it’s too easy, helping other children will push him further by him having to explain mathematical concepts and problem solving. This will help him grow confident, but sociable too.

Talk to the teacher. Maybe there are some advanced work books he can do whilst the others are on lower level maths.

I would recommend taking him to the library each week for new books as his reading progresses. Once he can read better, get some workbooks and pull some exam papers for gcse / 11+ or other age appropriate tests to try him at over the coming years. You’ll be able to identify gaps then. There’s loads of resources out there.

Coding sound like a great shout too.

I have a dc with particular strengths tho not so much as yours.

I agree I would save some time and energy for his more average skills/subjects as it can be pretty frustrating for them at secondary school esp the first few years if they are amazing at eg maths but have to plod through geography projects etc when they don't like reading and writing as much

Sorry OP I thought the question was directed at me x

@HalloweenScrooge

I really think what you’re describing here is an advanced aptitude for how numbers relate to one another and a good memory. The sheet above with the multiplications, square numbers, and roots, is one of those things that I would just be able to do very quickly because I know the answers to those things. Same with multiplication tables.

I don’t mean this negatively, btw, it’s a phenomenally useful skill to have and will set him up well for any subject area that requires good mathematical literacy.

As for what you do about it? I’d say some greater depth stuff, keep him broadly with his peers, but with harder questions. Bigger numbers, but understanding more about what he is doing right now, not something random grabbed from a y4 textbook.

I also think you should spend more time on the things you describe him as ‘average’ at - literacy, reading, other subjects. The more ‘rounded’ you can make him, the better his overall career prospects will be. It’s clear you don’t need to put much effort into teaching him maths because his ability is great.

I’d also not be so quick to rule out any kind of neurodiversity. It’s pretty well documented that extreme ability in one area often goes hand in hand with neurodiversity. It’s a common misconception that autistic children are not sociable, some can be incredibly so. I have a child with Aspergers who is incredibly engaging and great in groups. (He also had the concept of ‘infinity’ down as a preschooler.) Many neurodiverse children are incredibly gifted in some way, and often have a ‘special’ subject - sadly for us Super Mario Bros is nowhere near as useful as maths. So in your shoes I would definitely seek an Ed Psych evaluation. If there is something else going on (and my child appeared fairly neurotypical until 6 or 7) understanding it is key to unlocking his whole potential.

I totally agree with this, my nephew I spoke of who is highly gifted in maths we believe has aspergers - but never formally diagnosed. I think was his downfall into mental health issues as a young adult once at university, Being Undiagnosed.

I definitely would be keeping a close eye on his behaviours and seeking a assessment around the age of 8/9. Signs can often be missed but a gift at mathematics is often a warning sign. It's definitely something I would be investigating once the child is a little older.

He sounds like my DD at that age. She is 10 now and we have had to provide the challenge ourselves. With the exception of one year when her teacher did make an effort and provided nrich type challenges etc. We use out of school courses and programmes - I can’t recommend Beast Academy highly enough. Prodigy is good too but looks like a game in case that is a problem. DD is ready to take her GCSE now but we have hesitated because we think it would make maths even harder for her at school - do not think that an independent school will be the answer either, it certainly hasn’t been for us. She now reads in class whenever she finishes her specified work.

Olympiad places, an offer from Trinity College, Cambridge…basically what I am saying is relax, because if he is good he will shine and he will be found. The UK is great at managing maths talent.

A contrasting anecdote:
I discussed maths provision with several private schools - one had a kid who was capable of A level work when he entered the school in Y7 and was regularly in the top 100 nationally in the UKMT competitions. They told me proudly how he had not been accelerated, but kept with his year group, doing mostly the same work but with enrichment and participating in UKMT events. He got straight A*'s at A level and went to Cambridge. A bright future seemed assured.
Five years on: he didn't complete the 4 year masters course for which he enrolled, did not obtain a first class degree and did not proceed to higher study; he instead left university with a second class bachelors degree, and after several months at a loose end got an entry-level job with a company I've never heard of.
Researchers at SMPY would attribute this outcome to having a defective academic character brought on by 13 long years of being grossly under-challenged.

Re: "The UK is great at managing maths talent".
At school/under-18 level, international studies such as PISA and TIMSS show that in maths the UK is consistently mediocre, placing in the middle of industrialised western countries. By mid-teens the UK student cohort as a whole is working 2 years behind leading countries, and there are very few high attainers in UK comprehensive schools. In the international olympiads the UK is also unexceptional, often placing behind countries like Singapore, Thailand and Iran. UK team representatives are drawn overwhelmingly from private and grammar schools.

I am from another country and would agree. The maths provision here seems entirely underwhelming and there seems to be an almost pride in keeping children back and accusing parents of being pushy or hothousing when they are only trying to help their children. Oddly people with sporty children never get accused of being pushy.

@Snorkello, thanks for the kind words, we are quite proud yes, but also weary of the responsibility. The tutor is probably something we may explore further, for him to get the necessary discipline. I'm fine in explaining maths concepts, but must confess I also struggled with showing the working of my calculations, so may struggle to remember to push for it. This was something that actually aggravated the hell out of my (now) wife. BTW, we were on the same class since Y9. As for communication with school, this is a bit of an issue. It is remarkably poor, especially on current circumstances. Its like a trademark of that establishment. But we will plough on.

@extrastrongmints and @yodaforpresident, that does not sound very good, its quite unfortunate.

I echo the comments about showing his working and explaining to others. At our school they ensure the students who are finished the task assist with those still completing it. It helps keep the class together and consolidates the learning because if you can explain something then you understand it so much better.

Ultimately, if he can’t learn to show his working that’s going to be problematic in the future, as the majority of the exam marks are for methodology; very few are for the answer. It’s also possible that he can’t show his working because he doesn’t understand how he got there. This would be comparable to those children with extreme early reading fluency but who lack comprehension of the text.

a gift at mathematics is often a warning sign

The argument "This child is very good at maths. A child I knew / heard of with ASC was very good at maths. Therefore this child has ASC"
has the same logical structure as:
"I like circles. Archimedes liked circles. Therefore I am Archimedes."

a gift in mathematics is not in itself a "warning sign" (i.e. diagnostic) of anything other than needing more advanced maths tuition.
There is a slight association between ASC and mathematical ability as documented in the research of Simon Baron-Cohen and colleagues, but that doesn't mean one is diagnostic of the other. Conditional on being an able mathematician, there is a higher chance of having ASC than in the general population. But the vast majority of able mathematicians do not have ASC.
Centres such as GDC in Denver report that around 1 in 6 gifted children have some form of neurodiversity, SpLD or medical issue which impacts their learning (making them 2e).
Conversely, that means that around 5 in 6 gifted kids do not, which is not very different from the general school population.

Gifted kids can become socially maladjusted if they are starved of intellectual stimulation and peers.(example)

Thanks. He does knows the workings, I ask him quite often and he is able to explain it verbally at least. Guess its just the reduced dexterity of a 5yo that leads to him not doing it, should be temporary

Just signed up on the Beast academy and off he went with the pirate numbers. AHOY!

@yodaforpresident

I am from another country and would agree. The maths provision here seems entirely underwhelming and there seems to be an almost pride in keeping children back and accusing parents of being pushy or hothousing when they are only trying to help their children. Oddly people with sporty children never get accused of being pushy.

I agree. I had classic geeky kids. Great all rounders and musically talented too. But crucially not in the netball or rugby teams and therefore invisible. It's ok though, because like me they found sport outside of school and are now in their early twenties and fitter than any of those jocks and jockettes. And have better careers.

At our school they ensure the students who are finished the task assist with those still completing it. It helps keep the class together

This is the “teacher’s little helper” model of classroom management. It helps keep the class together by holding back the brightest and using them as unpaid teaching assistants, i.e. the brightest kids are used as fertilizer to bring up the others. It stems from a combination of ideology and convenience. Firstly, there’s an ideological belief that “closing the gap” is a desirable social outcome and that holding back the brightest is an acceptable price to pay to achieve it. Secondly, there’s the convenience that putting the brightest to work teaching the others is a whole lot easier than preparing separate work and delivering separate curriculum content to them.
This practice has Conflict of Interest written all over it. It puts the convenience of the teacher before the welfare and progress of a subset of the children, and it treats the brightest kids as a resource to be mined rather than a special needs population to be served.

@extrastrongmints There are multiple benefits of peer teaching as this develops leadership skills, confidence and resilience. However, there is too high gap in knowledge as for it to work he would have to explain square and cube numbers to Year 1 learners.

@extrastrongmints

At our school they ensure the students who are finished the task assist with those still completing it. It helps keep the class together

This is the “teacher’s little helper” model of classroom management. It helps keep the class together by holding back the brightest and using them as unpaid teaching assistants, i.e. the brightest kids are used as fertilizer to bring up the others. It stems from a combination of ideology and convenience. Firstly, there’s an ideological belief that “closing the gap” is a desirable social outcome and that holding back the brightest is an acceptable price to pay to achieve it. Secondly, there’s the convenience that putting the brightest to work teaching the others is a whole lot easier than preparing separate work and delivering separate curriculum content to them.
This practice has Conflict of Interest written all over it. It puts the convenience of the teacher before the welfare and progress of a subset of the children, and it treats the brightest kids as a resource to be mined rather than a special needs population to be served.

we used to call this the Dame School model. DD in particular who went on to study maths at university and now using it in an academic capacity did this all the way through secondary school into A levels. With one boy in particular. The thing was though she could do the curriculum stuff with ease and where else was there to go in the classroom? She developed her maths outside the classroom and also took a keen practical and academic interest in music which kind of provided her with more maths fuel. I hope the system did develop her confidence. No way of knowing of course after the event. Bog standard comp by the way - standard practice i think.

Hi. I've asked this previously but don't think got a response. We are trying to select the best assessment for DS, is the Potential Plus high
Learning potential assessment plus adequate? Below is a summary of the components of the test:

^The Assessment Covers
cognitive ability using a brief IQ test (Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test for Children)
current academic achievement in reading, writing and mathematics (Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement)
memory processing (Lucid Recall/Lucid Cognitive Profiling System)
phonological skills (Comprehensive Test of Phonological Processing/Lucid Cognitive Profiling System)
processing speed (Lucid Recall/Lucid Cognitive Profiling System)
a brief measure of sensory processing (Short Sensory Profile)
We also gather background information about the child from their parents and school (if appropriate).^

There's also available an add-on, school advice pack, at an extra cost. Does anyone has any prior experience if this is worth it?

Thanks

@beonthemathside the benefits of peer tutoring are all for the lower-achieving student. There are none for the higher achieving student and there is also an opportunity cost for the gifted student because the time spent tutoring weaker students cannot be used for activities that would benefit them such as acceleration:

"What does Research Say about Peer Tutoring Dyads

Since 1990, the research on mixed-ability peer tutoring dyads has concluded that the lower ability member of the dyad remains longer on task, speaks up more often to clarify or to understand materials, behaves more appropriately and achieves more than when instructed in more traditional methods. For the higher achieving student in these dyads there were no more differences in achievement or behavior than when they received traditional instruction
...
The final word, then, on peer tutoring as a strategy for developing gifts and talents would be that like-ability or like-interest dyads typically produce higher achievement than when a high potential student works alone. However using the bright student to tutor another child of lower ability does not increase the bright child's achievement. Peer tutoring using mixed ability dyads will only enhance the achievement and behavior of the lower ability student"

• Re-forming Gifted Education, Karen Rogers , p244-245

"Education's Responsibility to the Highly Gifted

Extremely gifted children must neither be ignored nor exploited in school. Certain popular educational strategies such as cooperative learning, can exploit these children, especially if they are permitted no time with intellectual peers and no regular, daily access to curriculum at an appropriate level of difficulty.
School is a place for learning. The message we give to all children about learning is linked in part to how we treat our most rapid learners. If they are ignored, exploited, damaged, held back in their progress, or teased, the message we give to all the children is that academic learning doesn't pay for anyone"

• Discrimination Against Excellence - Kathi Kearney

@extrastrongmints I agree that for peer teaching/tutoring to work the gap in knowledge can't be too wide. Unfortunately, this is the case with gifted learners. You have mentioned the progression of learners, which I agree has a little benefit to higher achieving learners. However, the peer teaching/tutoring has benefits in understanding compassion, confidence in understanding and how to explain different concepts, adaptability of knowledge to explain to other learners, leadership skills that allows to take control of peers, communication skills and understanding of differentiation and patience. You see, teacher task is to prepare children not only for exams, but also for life, where they will be able to cope with various situations. We cannot forget that there is more to success and happiness in life than knowledge.

That’s as may be - but when I have been in the classroom (as a parent and also as a governor) there is usually a standard set of work, and then an extension/challenge task. If all work is completed then children are often asked to peer coach. On this thread we are talking about a child with extreme difference in learning ability (for now, at least). It is feasible for a school to set some greater depth work, and some additional tasks, but probably not feasible for your average state primary to set a whole different learning programme for one child. That kind of enrichment is an extra curricular thing IMO.

But if we view school through the lens of the real world and the workplace then it’s reasonable to assume peer coaching, leadership, group work are all things that will crop up.

At school I was the ‘gifted’ child, but pretty much across the board. I was top of my class from year 1 to year 13 and didn’t really meet any true comparators until university (which incidentally was probably my most uncomfortable time, suddenly not being the cleverest or the quickest all the time).

Nowadays at work I spend a lot of my time in a highly collaborative environment and have to spend a huge amount of time getting everyone on the same page in order to progress. My colleagues are far from stupid but we all have different backgrounds and I’m considerably more academic than many of them. Even if the answer is blindingly obvious to me, it won’t be to all, and coaching people to the right answer is a big skill of mine. I rely most on the skills developed teaching undergraduate students physics as a PhD student in my day to day work, and am a frequently requested facilitator as a result. My academic ability is very much secondary and is useless if I can’t get my team and senior leadership to come with me on a solution.

So this is why I am nurturing my children holistically, but particularly building on the skills they don’t excel in. When we do do extra maths at home we use it in a very applied way and always focus on the methodology. I’m far more interested in how they might work something out than knowing the right answer to something.

peer teaching/tutoring has a place - to a degree. even for extremely gifted dc.

plus it works in more ways.
a child who is gifted in one subject is possibly behind in others and needs the help of teachers and peers in return.

but I agree that extremely gifted dc need more than peer teaching/tutoring.

@HalloweenScrooge

"At school I was the ‘gifted’ child, but pretty much across the board. I was top of my class from year 1 to year 13 and didn’t really meet any true comparators until university (which incidentally was probably my most uncomfortable time, suddenly not being the cleverest or the quickest all the time).

Nowadays at work I spend a lot of my time in a highly collaborative environment and have to spend a huge amount of time getting everyone on the same page in order to progress. My colleagues are far from stupid but we all have different backgrounds and I’m considerably more academic than many of them. Even if the answer is blindingly obvious to me, it won’t be to all,..."

That's just like me!! However, often I do struggle to convey my ideas, and the more disruptive they are the biggest the struggle! It is a big source of frustration on my professional life.