Y1 child very gifted at Maths

[ILJG]

Hi,

Writing here in the hopes of getting some guidance on how best to approach the situation of our son abilities in Maths. We live in the UK and DS just started on Y1 this term. He was born late June 2016, so on the youngest side of his class. Just to explain at what level his Maths are, after an half term on Y1 he can menthally do things like:

• add and subtract numbers up to at least 10,000;
• knows numbers up to the trillions;
• do complex multiplications, like calculate 15 to the power of 3 (15x15x15);
• does divisions and simple square roots;
• knows timetables up to 12, to the point that does 60s time attacks on doodle timetable with at least 15 answers, all correct;
• he understands the concept on infinity. Once I asked him what a number divided by infinite would be, and he not only gave me right answer, he also explained how he deducted it;
• his teacher recentelly taught him prime factorization, 2 days after that I asked him if he could determine the prime factors of 540, and it took him about 20sec on his way to school to do it menthally;
• and yeah, ha knows what a prime number is;
• the speed that he learns new Maths related things is staggering. He just understands the concept behind it, sometimes wiithout the need to give written examples. I taught him successfully negative numbers in about 10sec;
• and I could go on...

So, he has some serious brain horsepower when it comes to Maths. He loves all things that are logic based, and this was all mainly led by himself. He really enjoys Maths, likes to watch Maths related stuff on Youtube, loves all sorts of STEM toys too. On all other areas of learning he appears to be remarkably average. He is socially well adjusted, has plenty of friends and loves school.

In class his teacher is giving him some extra Maths work for DS to feel challenged, which is a good thing. However, it appears to be without any "structure" to it, just some random Y4, Y5 or Y6 subjects that teacher thinks will keep DS busy. Teacher must also not be too sure on how much DS knows, and since his "home learning" so far did not follow any formal structure, DS definitely has some basic knowledge gaps. For example, he can add numbers up 10,000 mentally, but he doesn't know how to do it in a piece of paper.

Both me and my wife were quite acomplished academically in Maths, both top of class, myself more naturally gifted, mom relying more on grit and work ethics. We both have Masters degrees in a related area. We came to the UK less then a decade ago and DS is our first child. He always realized he was quite able, after all we did teach him a few things when he asks about them, but only in lockdown during reception did we realized how far advanced he was in relation to his peers. At the time we sought advice from school on if we should stimulate this further or not, and they just said to continue to do the same. And so we have been doing, at his own pace. But being perfectly honest, it is becoming very disconcerting to see a 5 year old doing maths often quicker than his very accomplished mom, and with a speed not far from my own.

The main driver for this post is that both me and my wife had no contact with UK school system until now, so we are a bit unsure on the best way forward. The teacher his willing to give him extra work, however we feel it may be good to try to baseline his current level of knowledge to assist in developing a more structured learning plan. I read online we can get him tested by an education psichologist, but what sort of result will we get from it? Surely it will measure his ability, IQ, but will it identify learning gaps on specific maths topics? Also, how should the school assist? They have an appointed SENco, however online I find mixed answers on if this person is the best route for getting the necessary support for a gifted child? There are also council educational psichologists, shall we give it a go at that? We just had our parents evening and teacher mentioned Potential Plus UK as well. Pretty hefty fees in their assessments though, but we may be willing if its worth it, did anyone used their services that can offer some insight? And apart from the obvious short term benefits of getting the assessment report, on a longer term is there any benefit in having this certificate for ingress in schools in the future, etc? What about thoughts on joining Mensa? Any other advice on how best to take advantage of DS amazing ability?

Thanks a lot in advance

Both me and my wife were quite acomplished academically in Maths, both top of class, myself more naturally gifted, mom relying more on grit and work ethics.

This is offensive and sexist.

@WhereTheWildThingsArent

Both me and my wife were quite acomplished academically in Maths, both top of class, myself more naturally gifted, mom relying more on grit and work ethics.

This is offensive and sexist.

I don’t think it is. I’d far rather have grit and work ethic than god given ability. I know plenty of people who were very bright children who are unremarkable and unhappy as adults.

Op I may have missed it but what are your dc's literacy skills like? Problem solving is a big part of end of KS2 curriculum. Can he solve word problems? This requires inference skills , which good literacy skills are necessary for.

Agree with @WeRTheOnesWeHaveBeenWaitingFor, I can understand the background to a comment like that because I could say something similar about me and DH, only I'm the one who didn't learn to study steadily and have intermittently suffered the consequences as an adult.

The OPs son is the kind of child who only needs to be pointed at something and they're off running with it. Given your own mathematical backgrounds, you may be able to guide him to "work out" written methods for himself, challenge him to explain to an alien who can't count how to add up etc perhaps? A lot of the early stage written maths work may be superfluous as it is aimed at developing mathematical understanding (eg division as repeated subtraction, ugh); however you do want to watch out for gaps and writing stuff down / explaining "how" can be good for this.

I agree with those who say there's no problem of "running out" of curriculum as there is so much mathematics that is accessible to bright children but not covered as part of the standard progression. Geometry is one example I'd say, where you can run as far as you like. I have been surprised just how little my own children have done (eldest just finished A levels, youngest is at a school that extends ++ and has always done more outside the curriculum). I was schooled in a country that didn't do enough geometry (at least, it was always a weakness in the IMO teams), yet I think we still had more in our final public exams than the UK does.

Can I add my voice to those who've said, do more music? Add a "social" instrument to piano; violin, cello, recorder, flute may all be possible now with modified instruments and a suitable teacher, others may need another couple of years' growth.

I agree that you may find the independent sector more flexible especially from year 3 upwards. Though you absolutely have to find the right school. If you have a choirschool nearby and the ethos fits your family, that might be worth considering in a year or two (boys are typically auditioned for chorister places between years 2 and 4)

Good luck with your son and enjoy the ride!

Middle ds appeared to be many years ahead in maths when at primary school. Amazing mental maths skills, very quick to pick up anything they taught him. He exhausted the ks1&2 maths curriculum pretty quickly. Then a new teacher arrived and said that there was no point charging ahead beyond this and instead they were going to stretch him sideways. In the UK there is little advantage to taking gcse early for example. He also struggled with showing his workings. He did it all in his head so found it incredibly frustrating to have to show every step on paper but it was vital he learnt to do this. Also important to note that by the time he got to gcse and A level he no longer stood out like he did at a much younger age.

That's quite sad 3teens.

My advice is don't worry about getting him to 'show his workings' at this point. Maths is a playground, let him enjoy it.

I'd also advise on keeping his interests as broad as you can. Museums, music, science, coding, sport, what ever you can find. Do that for as long as you can. Don't make a big deal of his maths, you don't want him to grow up defining his worth on his maths ability. All mathematicians eventually find their challenge that is hard to push through and you don't want them to crumple when they do. You want to encourage resilience and tenacity when things are difficult, not self hatred as so many gifted mathematicians can find.

Hi, your DS has a fantastic natural ability and I totally see why you want to ensure the best way of helping him progress.
As a few other posters have said at his age, not even 6 years old, I would be focussing on other areas and not pursuing the maths to such a great extent he may feel pressured or put off it.
I think he may enjoy coding and programming. There are some great courses for children if that is an area he may be interested in? IT and digital skills will be of great value to this generation of course, and it is something he will pick up quickly and hopefully enjoy a lot.
I would also be immersing him in reading, if he is at an average age for his reading skills this will quickly hold him back accessing word related and logic puzzles. Not only will reading broaden his horizons and help with the rest of his education it will help his maths too.

I would also look at doing projects linked to other areas - could you research space together and make model planets for example? Shared areas of learning that are not maths specific (but can involve maths if you choose!) but learning in an enquiry based way.

www.egfl.org.uk/sites/default/files/maths%20puzzles%20all.pdf
This is a good resource for maths puzzles for able children.

I would also focus on his resilience - board games, a sport (maybe a team sport or martial art?), or a club like Cubs that would teach him a broad range of life skills. Of course he needs plenty of down time for free play and play with his peers. My experience of gifted children is that they often struggle with poor mental health - linked to difficulties socialising and inability to relate to peers (hence a shared hobby would be good). Also due to pressure from parents/ themselves to always be highly successful.

Celebrate him and enjoy him and let him be a child and play in the mud often .

@beonthemathside, think we have now decided to go with the assessment.

@jenniferturkington, I mention on a previous post that he is already learning music from his mum, who has a level 8 in music theory, and is learning to play the piano.

@WhereTheWildThingsArent, that is completelly untrue and quite off topic. What I wrote are just facts, and I don't think it diminishes in any way my wife as you can attest from some or my previous posts. And by the way, she's reading this thread.

@peppersauce1984, literacy at the momemt is standard level for a 5 year old. If I read the problem out loud he can interpret it and solve it (not especially quick, but gets there eventually). So his reading is holding him back on the problem solving, but we are aware and working on it.

@Pythonesque, thanks for your post, all good ideas we will consider.

@AvocadoAndToast, coding/robotics is definitelly on our radar and he is going to get into it pretty soon. He LOVES boardgames, we have several (recentelly he had a go at the adult version of Catan), and he has swimming and rugby classes. He's good at maths but also has a pretty good physique, so sports have been a part of his love for the last 3/4 years

@WhereTheWildThingsArent

Both me and my wife were quite acomplished academically in Maths, both top of class, myself more naturally gifted, mom relying more on grit and work ethics.

This is offensive and sexist.

No it isn’t. Sexism is applying a stereotype or making a generalisation. It is not stating facts about yourself or about those close to you.

Your dd sounds very gifted. I would be concerned if in some state schools won't be pushed. Have a look at private. My friends dd is amazingly gifted at maths and has a full bursury and is taking her gcse at 13. They have supported her all the way but even though that's her thing every day she is with her year group as the friends growing up side is so important

@ILJG - I guess it depends on how confident you are in doing stuff at home with your kid (I know it can be hard - especially if you and wife had a different schooling system from U.K. as you were growing up) - I did primary in a different country.

We homeschool currently, but hope our kid would try school at some point. We probably could just about afford private, but it would cost a lot of money and we’d be happy just sending him to a state school and extending at home (as we are quite familiar with the system). Of course it depends on what your local schools and child is like (some state schools are better than some private; and some kids suit private better than others - for many different reasons - eg smaller class sizes, sport etc).

What is worth looking at is some of the scholarship papers for some elite schools (eg eton, Winchester, westminister) - not necessarily to apply (the fees are terribly expensive and I think the environment is very specific for certain types of kid - I know quite a few people who went). but in the maths papers there are some cool puzzly questions where the content is less than gcse (meant for age 13) - but it makes you think. So I’m trying to teach my son enough to build up to these questions (maybe in a couple of years).

Third time lucky

Sounds very like my nephew who we suspect has aspergers, be very careful not to focus too much on his talents

Unfortunately my nephew lost his childhood as he just studied and read throughout his whole childhood and went to university and fell to pieces and ended up with metal health issues.

Luckily he got through them and is fine now but he suffered some dark times

He says he would never allow a child to do what he did and would encourage sports and friends way more than academics

Just some food for though about how you handle it and direct him.

@Indoctro, thanks. For the moment there's no signs of such behaviour but we will keep our eyes peeled.

I think there are two questions here: how to support DS outside of Maths lessons and what he should be doing during a Maths lesson. You’ve got some great ideas on this thread of ways to keep Maths fun at home and other ideas of things to broaden his interests. In terms of the Maths lessons themselves, I used to teach Y1 and I immediately thought “that poor teacher!” There will be some very low ability children in that class who will need lots of support, so differentiating for someone with that level of ability as well must be a lot of extra work for them. I’d be tempted to keep him with the class for part of the lesson (to practice turn-taking, general learning behaviours etc, as well as learning how we notate our work in Y1). And then for the second part of the lesson perhaps for him to have his own workbook for independent working. Depending on the teacher’s experience it might be difficult to know where to pitch that workbook, they might need support from a Y6 teacher and/or the school Maths lead to work out exactly what should be included. He could do with some assessment as well, just in case there is an area of Maths he’s not as strong in (time, volume, shape etc). I think it’s worth asking to meet with the school to discuss. He certainly sounds very advanced to me and I’d have been completely thrown if he’d turned up in my Y1 class!

@PlanDeRaccordement
Yes I appreciate that, my original statement was a little blunt and it is possible that this is just 'a fact'. It is however a fact that women's mathematical skills are systematically put down to hard work whilst men are right of as gifted, so statistically speaking it seems likely that this sexist, societal opinion might have influenced this particular statement.

@ILJG in relation to this being off topic, I should have elaborated before, but I don't think it is. The 'natural talent' vs 'hard work' trope is damaging to all young mathematicians and overlaid with considerations of sexism I think you need to be very careful about how you present this idea to your son.

As for both private school or homeschooling, that would entail some serious changes to our current lifestyle and not sure what the right answer is. We both have good jobs, and with our current combined pay we just maybe could afford private but surely at the expense of other things in our life we hold dear. For the homeschooling option one of us, probably myself, would have to stop working, and we can’t afford that. We both get a very similar pay, it's not like what I guess is the more typical situation of one of the elements of the couple contributing the most income to the household. But let's put on the table the private option. We currently live in East London. Is anyone aware of goods schools around here? Good value for money please

@VashtaNerada, i can definitely appreciate that. Over the first half of term 1 we accidentally crossed paths with DS teacher a couple of times when collecting him from afterschool club. He's quite young and said he never had anything quite like our son, and straight away said that he didn't have materials ready. He also said we was going to spend the half term preparing stuff for him. So he seems keen. He did also mention that there are kids in class still working in their aingle digits +1 sums, so yeah, poor him .

We are going to do an assessment with an ed psyc first, and we will go from there.

ILJG can I refer you to my comment way up thread? Your DS may not be in this category, but what I was referring to was based on personal experience. I know a child who was the son of a taxi driver, who happened to be extraordinarily gifted at maths. When this was spotted through the UKMT, he was literally offered a free place at any top private school that he chose. Even at the school he went to, he was way above the rest of the boys, so spent part of his time going to university classes. He spent his summers at Cambridge and automatically went there. He is a very happy and fulfilled kid, and very very good at Maths!

Hi @WorkingItOutAsIGo, thanks for this post. I did take a peak on the UKMT website and it aomehow came accross to me as an option for when he was older? Anyway, I will contact them and see what they say.

We had a similar experience, that DS1 had self taught himself and completed the KS2 Maths by year 1. He had a natural ability and just wanted learn but we found his outstanding State School hopeless and put him in a local academic prep school. The school spent weeks assessing him and eventually the head of Maths began to teach him and he sat in older year lessons. They had not had this situation before and normally would just move the child up a school year. It was a fluid situation and they had to come up with different ways to ensure he did not get bored. He sat numerous maths competition nationally but was bored by end of year 5/year 6 but we found his Grammer was great from year 7.

When my younger DS joined, they were much better organised. At one point he was doing the Primary, Junior and Intermediate maths challenges and the related olympiads. In his year 6, he got a UKMT mentor which challenged him.

The prep school ensured they got to experience a wider range of subjects so was challenged academically in these. We ensured that they understood that they needed to able to do well across the board. We also worked on their social interaction since loving maths at this age, means that others thought they were strange. Both are in super selective Grammer which deals well with intelligent kids and are still at the top of their class in Maths.

I really think what you’re describing here is an advanced aptitude for how numbers relate to one another and a good memory. The sheet above with the multiplications, square numbers, and roots, is one of those things that I would just be able to do very quickly because I know the answers to those things. Same with multiplication tables.

I don’t mean this negatively, btw, it’s a phenomenally useful skill to have and will set him up well for any subject area that requires good mathematical literacy.

As for what you do about it? I’d say some greater depth stuff, keep him broadly with his peers, but with harder questions. Bigger numbers, but understanding more about what he is doing right now, not something random grabbed from a y4 textbook.

I also think you should spend more time on the things you describe him as ‘average’ at - literacy, reading, other subjects. The more ‘rounded’ you can make him, the better his overall career prospects will be. It’s clear you don’t need to put much effort into teaching him maths because his ability is great.

I’d also not be so quick to rule out any kind of neurodiversity. It’s pretty well documented that extreme ability in one area often goes hand in hand with neurodiversity. It’s a common misconception that autistic children are not sociable, some can be incredibly so. I have a child with Aspergers who is incredibly engaging and great in groups. (He also had the concept of ‘infinity’ down as a preschooler.) Many neurodiverse children are incredibly gifted in some way, and often have a ‘special’ subject - sadly for us Super Mario Bros is nowhere near as useful as maths. So in your shoes I would definitely seek an Ed Psych evaluation. If there is something else going on (and my child appeared fairly neurotypical until 6 or 7) understanding it is key to unlocking his whole potential.

Would you consider the PPUK High Learning Potential Assessment Plus indicated for this?