That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

I think outliers find it harder to find people with similar tastes with whom to make friends. The trick is to focus on your more mainstream interests, like football. Maybe make a series of friends that represent different interests.
I think i have repeated this so often that it may well be the inscription on my headstone!

What holds DS1 back is the shyness and worry that he'll be rejected, which gets more likely the less he develops experience of interacting with people. He needs to take tiny steps to break out of it. I don't expect him to bounce into a room and charm everyone in it, but just challenge himself to have a brief conversation with someone about football - or whatever - and then once he's done that many times with several people, go for 5 mins with someone. Then try saying something friendly every time he sees the person. Then sit next to them on the coach or something. Be nice. Be interested in them. Then try to have a laugh with them. Let them see that you are good company.

WoodHeaven - I'll PM you with some names.

Well, I don't think they are related, as some previous posters have also said.

It has more to do with personality, whether they introverted or extroverted. Then of course there are other factors that help or make the situation worse (what is valued at school, how the other children are, is the child happy and settled, does he feel valued or ignored, bullied, etc).

My able DS1 is very sociable, makes friends very easily, seems to know how to fit in from the go, likes football, tag, ball games, and also likes the geeky things like science fiction, fantasy, etc (mainly from DH and I). I'm always in awe at how socially capable he is, as I was (and still am) the opposite. I'm an introverted, was very able at school but struggled to make meaningful connections and friendships. It took me a long time to develop those skills, and the best friends I made I met them much later as an adult.

DD is quite introverted and better in a small group. But she does have a few really good friends and is apparently very popular within the class according to her teacher. What she finds hard about friendships is that she happens to be the kind of person who finds it both satisfying and easy to unpick motivations and put herself in someone else's shoes. She finds it really hard to understand that when X or Y said that mean thing it probably wasn't actually deliberate, X and Y were just only thinking about themselves, which is hardly uncommon in small children!

"Bobo- my ds is an outlier in his school."

It's not the same thing to be an outlier in your school, in an area that creams off the top 20%, and an outlier versus the population as a whole.

Var123 your son sounds like mine, mine is not academic. He's lovely, gets on with adults and for teachers abd so in is lovely.
Boys his age find him annoying. Not sure why, it's almost intangible but he gets tiny social nuances wrong.

Some Boys that are crazy about football are as socially awkward in other situations sometimes, football is their only communication and so faced with a child that isn't into football they struggle as much as an academic who finds a lack of interest in algorithms.

PosieReturningParker - its not easy, is it?

I honestly don't know what other boys think of DS1, or if he makes them cringe.

There were a couple of boys - three actually - at my school who it was social suicide to go near. I don't know how they came to find themselves in that position because they had it by the time they floated into my awareness.

The other children weren't cruel exactly. We just all acted like there was a glass wall around them and they were excluded from everything (which is cruel). One fo them lived near me, and he was in most of my classes so one night he knocked on the front door and invited himself in to hang out. I was mortified! There was nothing wrong with him, but I didn't feel that I had enough popularity to take the hit.

I am worried that maybe DS1 is like that boy. God, I hope not! DH - who has always been very popular everywhere he's ever gone - tells me not to fret about it. Times are different. It will all be fine. Then that's his entire contribution.

Sorry, bobo- dismiss me and my experience as much as you like, I'm not going to shut up to please you!

Var123.

I feel the same about mine, I think endlessly about the kids I ignored and what they must have felt.

Sometimes ds1 gets to the point where it all comes out and he says he tries but no one likes him. He's good looking, not just a mothers bias, and so his saving grace is girls... They all love him apparently. And let's face it as long as you're good looking girls don't really care whether you're cool or a total idiot!

I tell my boy all of the time that for some people school will not be the best years of their lives. This is a good thing because there's a lifetime after school and who wants the best years of their lives to be over at 18!

Thanks Bobo :):)

var I think I agree with your DH.

If he is shy, then pushing him to be in situations where he has to be social might have the opposite effect. He is going to struggle and learn that he can't do it. And then he will avoid said situation out of fear iyswim.
Better to nurture situations where he is confident, maybe when he is with family/cousins/his db so he still has to develop his social skills but at his own pace and in a non threatening envrionment.

From what you are saying, it is also linked with being gifted (in his case) because with his abilities come more maturity than his peers. That makes things harder but it will settle down as he grows up and he becomes an adult.

What about a chess club? Or something that is quiet and social, the conversation is narrow and has a point?

Or something similar?

Just to add I know plenty of gifted kids that are emotionally immature and plenty of not gifted who are.

YY Posie gifted doesn't always means more mature!

What about starting anew thread? This one has alerady filled

irvine socially able children know when it makes sense to talk about their interests, and when it's not appropriate (I wouldnt necessarily expect a 6 year old to know how to do this though! For some kids it comes naturally but for many it is learnt behaviour). Not being able to discuss your interests with everyone isn't an issue (though having no one to talk to might be).

There are plenty of things that I avoid talking about with casual social acquaintances or colleagues ... Or that I would only broach in particular circumstances. For eg I have an longstanding interest in climate change, but even with scientists it's not something you would necessarily bring up in conversation (especially as I work with chemists and geologists who, strangely, seem more likely to be sceptics than scientists from other branches, and the general public).

Another eg - DD has a passionate interest in music and a sideline in songwriting/ performing, she's not the next Amy Winehouse or anything (and I wouldnt want her to be) but she gets gigs and local radio slots. She wouldn't dream of discussing this with friends ("they all listen to bad French rap") or telling her classmates about being on the radio, not because she is especially modest, but because she understands the social codes among adolescents that sanction behaviour that looks like bragging.

I think for some dc social issues and being gifted/ outliers are linked. They're starting from being different, and while you get kids like dd, who are confident enough to genuinely not give a damn, without ever worrying about what they'd say or do if others notice they're different, and other dc who are good at blending in, it's not suprising that some personalities aren't like that.

Bertrand - I'm not dismissing your experience; it is a different experience to the one being discussed on this thread. Why don't you start your own thread about your own issues, rather than being dismissive of the general issues being raised systematically on this one and trying to make it about your DS in his different circumstances?

lurked I completely agree ... But I would argue that while giftedness may be a factor, it's not the main one. It would be just as difficult for a learning disabled dyspraxic kid to fit into a class of keen footballers.

I also think that by making it all about giftedness we risk (a) not giving our children the opportunity to develop a range of social skills (my DS has a close friend with whom he shares a lot of interests, but interacting only with this friend or others like him wouldn't help him develop wider social skills) and (b) giving the child a reason not to make the effort.

This is another reason I'm really against excessively selective education, as it limits social opportunities to children who are broadly similar in terms of ability and (usually) social background.

There are also a whole load of other issues which can muddy the issues of friendship, some of which - like sensory issues - do occur more often in gifted children.

It took us ages to work out why DD, who could make friends with anyone on holiday, when out and about, at an event, didn't flourish so well at school. Eventually we worked out that her sensitivity to noise and distraction, which causes her to shut down in an over-stimulating environment, meant that she could hardly speak in the playground, never mind negotiate social interaction.

But - as has been said above - all gifted children are different, and they are responding to very different environments, so it's impossible to generalise

Yes, Mistigri. I think my ds learned it a hard way that his interest doesn't always interest other children.
Now in Yr3, he knows that, and although he doesn't shut up and talking constantly about his interest to me or daddy(makes me bonkers!), he doesn't do it to his friends anymore. ( I questioned him, "do you tell those things to your friends?" and he said," No, they aren't interested.")
He has matured a bit socially.

Eventually we worked out that her sensitivity to noise and distraction, which causes her to shut down in an over-stimulating environment, meant that she could hardly speak in the playground, never mind negotiate social interaction.

School can be a very busy, noisy place. The commotion can be such that sensitive children cannot concentrate because break times and the lunch break are so noisy that their brains are not in functional, calm mode for an hour afterwards.

Seen that we've reached 998 posts (!!!) already, I've started a new thread
The Glass Ceiling - part 3

Please come and carry on the discuccion there :)

next thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2562435-The-Glass-Ceiling-part-3 Thanks, Woodheaven.

and for ease, the first one:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children