That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

Mistigri - French state lycées are often ordinary but they are, by definition, not comprehensive. French state education is only comprehensive to 15. Thereafter, it is selective.

Very green leafy comp, Greenleave.

Selected for both children despite them passing for superselective (though single sex) grammars.

Been happy with it from Day 1 for DS, DD less so in Y7 due to an uncongenial form group, Y8 goig brilliantly.

Greenleave - I couldn't give any sort of reliable answer to that, except "maybe".
I can observe and deduce but as I have no experience of selective schooling and my Dc do not either, i couldn't make an educated guess that would say ti would definitely be better.

Probably, the work would be better differentiated for the far end of the bell curve. Maybe my Dc would get the shock of their lives if they suddenly found that working very hard still didn't put them back in front of everyone around them. Maybe they'd rise to the challenge, or maybe they'd crumple.

I imagine DS1 would find it easier to find people to talk to. This time last year he was getting very upset that no one was really conversing with him. It was just the odd word here and there and then off to football, or heads back down to continue with the game on their phones whilst he wanted to talk about politics or travel or last night's news etc.

bobo that's true to a certain extent, but no more (and probably less) than an average A level class in sixth form, since the general and technology bac courses account for about two thirds of students. DD's lycee is "polyvalent" anyway (so offers vocational courses as well), I suspect it's very different from the sort of lycée that you are familiar with.

As I said, DD's class is selective, so it's not a "comprehensive" class by any means (and there are at least 4 students who are obviously G&T) - but the school itself is comprehensive (it's very large too, has an intake of about 600 in nineteen classes per year of which 13 are general/ technology and 6 are vocational).

Greenleave

My dd is in a private/ charitable status super selective and many of the issues i read on here that are state school specific just don't apply at her school at all and it is completely different.

NewLife4Me - what is it like?

Does it ever feel like your DC's ability is a nuisance?
Is there much busy work?
How important is it to tutor other children as proof of mastery?
Do they use NC levels?
What % of work is outside the NC?
Is there still a concept of nerds?
Are the classes mixed ability? (mixed being a relative term!)
How much differentiation is there?
Is academic achievement valued?
What else is highly valued?
What isn't especially valued?

and a gazillion other questions?!

Mistigri - I don't know what you think I am used to. My DSS1 went to a very ordinary state college, right through, as comprehensive as could be. More than 50% of his cohort did not get into a lycee general/technologique.

DS attends a highly selective private school.

DD attended a mixed ability private school until Y11 and now attends the same highly selective private school as her bro.

Var, if you want to know about private selective schools why not go back to the main education boards where they are frequently discussed by parents of kids attending them. (Many of these kids seem highly gifted but their parents do not hang out on this board.)

var to answer your questions about super selective private school.

High ability if a pre requisite not a nuisance.

They don't tutor others.

No NC levels ( that anyone ever told me about).

Lots of work outside the curriculum. Some subjects more than others.

Yes there are geeks. But it's not a bad thing to be. Nor is being a bit 'different'.

There are sets.

I don't know about differentiation.

Academic achievement is valued and expected.

Other things that are valued; sport, music, drama, voluntary work ( everyone has to do it) etc. DD has made her mark very quickly in areas outside the curriculum ( much to DS annoyance).
Amongst the kids the usual stuff is valued. They're clever kids but pretty standard issue in many many ways.

What isn't valued ? Lots of stuff is valued but not rewarded IYSWIM. It's just expected. Good behaviour, punctuality, attendance, effort. You won't get any points for those, but Lord help you if you don't meet the standards.

Ah, var

It's absolutely amazing to see her so happy and in her words with friends who are the same
She doesn't feel weird anymore and if she is weird then her friends are too, is her attitude.

Will have to answer busy work again, as not sure what you mean? And the mastery question

No, it has never been a nuisance but such hard work until September.
We even took her out of school for a while as she didn't have the time to practice as much as she wanted to. Our lives revolved around her insatiable need for music. It's hard to take a back seat now and let them get on with it, you need 100% trust in the teachers.

Until the levels disappeared recently they did, however her English teacher mentioned the GCSE levels of 1-9 which I'm ashamed I didn't listen to, because dd is y7.

Most of her day is outside the nc, but all school work follows nc, they even do ks3 music which dd finds funny.

They split the year group for Humanities but for Science Maths and English they are taught together, the teacher differentiating. I'm not sure how much, but will ask for you.
There are those who are gifted, bright, above average, average, below average and very below average in all subjects except music.

There are 22 children in her year group, only 290 something in the school.

No concept of nerds, because of course they all share the same gift in music, although obviously some are more advanced than others.
They are told from the off that they will meet people better than them, which is important if they have stood alone until joining the school.

Academic achievement and especially effort is valued immensely and any child (like mine was) not putting in the effort and you are informed immediately and we have a live stream to their time table and their live stream. There is no escape

We have parents evening every term and you can take as long as you want with each teacher.

I'm not sure what isn't valued tbh. I suppose meanness is one, my dd not good at Maths but her teacher is brilliant. A boy chirped up that dd will never be any good at maths and she had him immediately.

She has gone from hating Maths and her teacher to actively seeking help with her prep and understanding of the work, doing the work and actually handing it in. A huge development for dd, believe me.

I read these threads with such interest and feel so sorry that many other children can't experience such a school for other subjects.
I don't know why this is the case.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions anybody has.
It's a fantastic school, not without it's problems like any other school.
But what is interesting is it stands alone and works terrifically well for the dc who attend.
It can be very stressful at times and maybe wouldn't suit the anxious or stressed child, who wasn't confident with their gift/talent/ability.
Mine fits though as she is so laid back, she's almost horizontal. I know they will get her through a few GCSE's even if it's kicking and screaming.

I do think that schools for children with a specific talent, like the Royal Ballet School , or the Brit School or the school New's dd goes to are different, surely?

Bert

They are completely different but there is no reason why they couldn't work for other subjects, and I really do feel for people on these threads.
If music and Ballet were nc subjects our children would only be the top 10% or 5% whatever the figure used in state schools.
Because it isn't the none nc talented stand out because not everybody does it, iyswim.
At dd school they look for promise/ potential more so than ability imo, not exams passed. Obviously they have all had lessons and at the stage the school request, but they look for so much.
I suppose the equivalent for something like English or Maths would be the same. Insatiable appetite for the subject, attending every group parents could find for miles. Running out of books to read, churning over Pythagoras until the early hours etc. Obviously, people could add their own to this.

We found that once dd started it wasn't just the teaching which is exceptional but the support and encouragement from peers, they have an attitude of in it together which is so wonderful to see.

greenleave dd went to a state primary most people would actively avoid. It was fantastic. She's now at a ss independent. That's even more fantastic.

Yy re awards. Its not like it's just able and well behaved kids that miss out.

bert why is it any different?

Exactly the same as Lurkedforever1, DS is at state primary most people would actively avoid. It is fantastic. We have none of the problems most people on this thread complain about.

I wonder if some state primaries can be so good with the able children, why can't the others too?

Awhh, thanks everyone, so it looks like the only way is paying for it!!! So whatever we are discussing here mostly happens with state (or free) school.

Dont get me wrong similar to my friend who works as an account in nhs comes at 9 and leaves at 4 as long as she does 7 hours then she is ok, she can do 9 hours today then 5 hours the next day and she says her team is always busy having tea...(she is on around £50k as a qualified aca accountant) compare to my husband years ago who was qualified from a big four firm and worked 12 hours aday sometimes weekend. These two jobs are miles apart.

For those of you who have dc at pruivate school (at selective), how did you make your choice and know how the school would be like?

I did loosely ask dc1 what he thought about our private school. His anwer was : 'the children are know who go there are all either stupid or arrogant' (followed by example that really didn't do any favour to said children).
Is that really what ends up happening ?9999

elle I'm serioulsy wondering about that too!

Green

We have to pay, but it really is a good deal.
It used to cost the same when we factored in travel, lessons, tickets.
There could be a similar scheme for academic subjects, where the subject could attract sponsorship, donations, etc from people in the field, private companies etc.
At dd full fees aren't payable under 190k, or similar.

If paying is the way then I will prepare for it, we live in sw london so there are plenty selective to super selective secondary. Now, there are under 2 conditions: 1: saving and working harder and praying fir the job/s is/are still there and 2: passing 11+.

Life is surely not easy!

Wood

I listened to the nay sayers, heard the rumours, read media reports, went to the open days, concerts.
Posted on here and surprise there was a parent on here We met up and she gave me her experience.

This was after dd had already made her mind up she was going, at any cost.
We are in a neighbouring area and events at the school and the children are well publicised. She watched Young Musician and decided from this and another tv docu type for children.

WoodHeaven - we moved DSS1 from a French state college to a French Catholic lycée. DSS1 did not want to go to the large and impersonal state lycée that was the no-brainer follow-on from his college. When he was in Quatrième I researched all possible options - we were limited by geography to a fair extent - and we applied to many of them at the beginning of Troisieme, having a fair idea of what they were like. In the end it was most definitely one of those bingo moments because DSS1 really wanted to go to the Catholic lycee he ended up attending, after his interview with the head. It was our outlier option but it was a great match for him. His brother ended up going there too, at the same time. It was a huge success and both are doing exceptionally well (DSS1 has fantastic offers for his MSc and a super competitive City pre-recruitment internship in exactly the field he wants, DSS2 has just started university but doing brilliantly already).

TBH I think nothing beats gathering an awful lot of information about schools and applying to many. Information and analysis is everything.

Went to my friends place in Kent last weekend and they said, children fails for grammar go to private. Well there are so many grammar schoo suround them, their daughters passed 11+ and have 5 offers. We only have Tiffins and even with Tiffins I have the feeling/thinking that its state/free so it might be the same story as my daughter outstanding state primary.

I went to a v selective secondary school. Probably one of the most selective in the country. I can't compare to my DD's education as I was also educated at a state school at primary level (hers is superior to mine by far). But for me, the answers to those questions are:

Does it ever feel like your DC's ability is a nuisance? Dunno, I was young. I didn't notice being a nuisance.

Is there much busy work? No. Some. I didn't do most of it. This was mainly accepted by teachers.

How important is it to tutor other children as proof of mastery? Didn't happen.

Do they use NC levels? n/a, didn't exist

What % of work is outside the NC? No NC but a high percentage was outside the actual stuff we needed to know to pass exams.

Is there still a concept of nerds? Yes.

Are the classes mixed ability? (mixed being a relative term!) Some of them were. Maths, French, English, Latin, Physics and Chemistry were in sets. The mix of mixed ability was obviously much smaller than in a school educating the full spectrum of abilities, I would say less than the top 5%.

How much differentiation is there? None, apart from sets. None was really needed, tbh.

Is academic achievement valued? Yes.

What else is highly valued? An inquiring mind, ability to think outside the box, music, art, popularity.

What isn't especially valued? Sport. But that might just have been my friends.