That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

Those real strong friendships at primary age are nothing though, unless you stay in your home town, keep in touch for your life what value do they have? Much better to just get along surely?

var123 Is your son able to read a room? (As in fit in)

pokemon was all the rage when dd was the right age. All of the stats and collecting suited her personality right down to the ground.

In secondary school music has been her link to a good social network.

xpost posie
This isn't my experience. You can get along fine with people, talk and laugh (or learn to laugh when it's suppose to happen) and feel you have absolutely no connection with them.

There is a need to make the difference between being soocially OK with people and having friends. These are two different things.

Eg It is clear that one issue dc1 faces is an issue with maturity. He is much more mature than his peers and therefore struggles with making friends within his year group.

PosieReturningParker You are right, of course. Except, from what I have seen DS1 might have more in common with someone who was interested enough to learn about the American presidential election process (like DS1 was this morning) and that child is more likely to be intelligent. But intelligence does seem to go hand in hand with a deep curiosity about the world.

So, its about shared interests, which is what most friendships are founded on, whatever the relative levels of intelligence.

PosieReturningParker I don't think so. He is quiet and stays towards the back whether he is entering a room full of people quietly reading, or a full-on party.

but he is very good at understanding what people are probably feeling although this ability to emphasise doesn't seem to help as it just adds to his sense that they won't want him.

Narrow interests and not being able to adapt are things they test for with ASD. Not saying this is your child!! But it's quite a specific thing isn't it? And the not joining in other games is not fitting in.

My oldest struggles as most of his male peers are idiots, sexist morons and so he cannot ignore and speaks up (all great yaddy ya) but not for him making friends! My other older boy totally objects too but knows when to.

Both my academic and not so are very interested in politics, they go to a Tory blue school and come home ranting on a daily basis!

Both found football and tag boring and pointless but DS2 knew that this was a route to friendship.

some schools have programs for kids who are socially excluded, they can equip them with pathways into friendships. Perhaps look into that. I genuinely don't think it's your child's intelligence that's getting in the way but their lack of social skills

I'm not blaming the child here! But you can not change the world to suit your child, you have to equip your child to fit in with the world.

Of course some kids just are in the wrong class.

WoodHeaven - I send my DD to a lot of summer camps where there are DC with pluricultural backgrounds who speak several languages. The focus of the camps is some activity that DD has chosen (this summer she will redo film making and musical theatre camps) or that I think she ought to receive as a supplement to her school education (coding) and that is the shared activity but it is no more and no less important to her huge enjoyment of the camps as just hanging out with open minded people from all over the world.

"Bertrand - you are describing your DS who is not an outlier and saying outliers should be like him."

Bobo- my ds is an outlier in his school. His experience -and mine- is valid to this discussion.

Bobo could you give me the name of the ompany running these camps please? That sounds really good for both dcs.

And actually, ds didn't find making friends easy- secondary transition separated him from his circle. It took determination and effort and lots of me cheering from the sidelines and facilitating to get him where he is today.

Narrow interests but his interests are broad

and not being able to adapt he's shy rather being unable to adapt

are things they test for with ASD. Not saying this is your child!! But it's quite a specific thing isn't it? Yes, ASD is specific, and the parents often don't see it because it can be hard to accept, but DS1 really does not have ASD. He even saw an educational psychologist when his dysgraphia was being diagnosed, and she wrote that there is no sign of ASD or anything else behavioural

And the not joining in other games is not fitting in. Yet, he did play and for years. Its just he grew out of it, as everyone does, and even then he still played it sometimes to show his friend that he was happy to do what the friend wanted to do as long as it was reciprocated. However, he wanted to do something different half the time (chat or play football) and his friend was adamant that he only wanted to play tag. Do you still play tag with your friends now?

I'm not blaming the child here! But you can not change the world to suit your child, you have to equip your child to fit in with the world.

and there was me wondering why all this clicking my fingers and rubbing magic lanterns wasn't working!

Ok. Plan B. Help DS1 make friends. But back to my question at 7ish this morning - how when all the things I have tried extensively are not working (or at least I think he doesn't have any friends)?

I asked the school for help two and a bit years ago, not long after the start of Y7. They offered to change seating plans if DS could say someone he'd like to sit next to, and they offered that falling backwards with your eyes shut into someone's arms thing. So, they did try to help.

Three things happened as a result:

1. DS was placed next to a popular boy, who is now a good friend of Ds's ex-best friend. They barely spoke to each other though as the school enforces a strict no talking rule in class and in the corridor outside when lining up and DS was scared witless of crossing the teacher for the first year or so.
2. DS did the falling backwards course and just felt embarrassed to have to do it and be pulled out of class for it.
3. DS felt that my interfering by asking the school had made a bad situation worse. So, that is why he will not tell me now whether he has friends and what their names are.

My current hope is that when the GCSE courses start, DS will probably spend more time with the more academic students by being setted with them and by choosing academic subjects. He will probably see the same faces in many of his classes.

Combine that with the fact that they are all maturing, and maybe he'll stand a better chance of spending time with people that he can find a common interest with? (even if its football - Ds has huge knowledge about that - I don't care as long as he makes a friend that he can enjoy growing up with).

It annoys me when people say stop worrying about the academics and worry about the social side instead. Like parents can't manage to worry about two things at once - isn't that rather the job description? I can worry about them getting enough exercise and sleeping enough and eating sensibly and about DS still sucking his thumb at the same time too - super-multi-tasker me!

The more academic of our two DD is actually also very sociable, so far; DS does find it hard to make friends, he's fine at getting along with people but also not bothered about being on his own. He had a very close best friend at his old school but hasn't made any at his new school yet. It is something I worry about rather a lot, but that doesn't stop me wanting him to be happy on the academic side too. Sometimes being happy academically also helps socially, when you're feeling happy then it's easier to socialise generally.

catkind It would be true to say that if you are feeling happy and secure in one aspect of your life, it can help you develop the confidence to take a risk with something else.

I wouldn't say that DS1 or 2 are angst ridden about the pace of progress at school. It just means a bit of boredom and tons of free time as they never get the "finish your work at home" homework.

Is "not having friends" because of giftedness, though?

There is a whole spectrum of introversion/ extraversion and IME it doesn't particularly overlap with giftedness.

Of the definitely gifted kids (and adults) that I know, most are sociable and well integrated. The ones who aren't, are generally introverts, or have some issues with social skills and situations that may or may not be severe enough to qualify them as being on the autistic spectrum.

My own moderately gifted DS is quite introverted, uncomfortable in large groups (better in small ones) and has some autistic traits although he is plainly not autistic. It has taken many years for him to start to feel comfortable in social situations at school - really it's just this year (Y9 equiv., he'll be 13 on Sunday) that he has developed reasonably normal school friendships. He has one very close friendship outside school, and is friendly on a more superficial level with the kids from his cycling club.

Contrast this DD who is much more gifted but very able in social situations (except when annoyed, when she sometimes doesn't know when to shut up). She has been fortunate through secondary school to have at least 2 other obviously gifted kids in each of her classes, but in only one case has she developed a close friendship with that child. She tends to make friends with "high EQ" girls, and more generally (on summer camps) with the more original and slightly offbeat teens (this is NOT code for "gifted").

Mind you the more I read this thread the more I wonder if her IQ test wasn't moumentally wrong, since she has very in little in common with the gifted stereotype. She's not even especially good at maths ;)

Is there a pattern there that girls find it easier than boys?

It might well be that the issue is that, what is socially acceptable, is to be a bit rough, enjoy football etc.. If you don't then you don't fit in, regardless of the academic abilities.

I've seen it happening in dc2 class where there are a few quiet, sometimes academic, not fan of football, children. They all found it very hard and tend to hang around together even though they actually don't have a lot in common!

cat I fully agree that these are related insofar that being happy and really settled on an academic pov will help being settle with friends. Also it will say a lot about what is valued in the school, which in turn, will change the dynamics between the children.

Is there a possibility that confirmation bias is work here?

Sorry- the urban myth is that clever children find it hard to make friends- my child finds it hard to make friends ergo it must be be because he/she is clever...

My impression (anecdotal) is that gifted kids are more likely to have social issues if they are boys and/or if their giftedness is concentrated more on the nonverbal reasoning side. (DS falls into both those categories, DD into neither).

But I think sometimes being clever and mature than your peer makes it harder to fit in, isn't it?
Even they are talking about same topic, they maybe talking about it in different level.
In yr1, when topic was dinosaurs, I thought my ds fit in perfectly with other children. But there were huge difference in level of knowledge they had. When he was happily talking about it to me, I wondered what other children thought... I bet they got really bored listening to him going on about it.
I think it maybe same for football. Most children just want to kick the ball, but some child find it interesting to know facts etc., about it.