That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

I wonder whether very traditional maths, where all the working out is written out in full in words, isn't easier for the clever child with a preference for words over numbers? I'm increasingly unconvinced by English style maths where working out isn't formalized in a logical sequence in words - I think it loses some DC on the way.

you mean the maths style of maths?

Thanks everyone for your good wishes.

innocuoussocks - that's a really interesting post. I think Multivac was trying to argue for something similar but I am not certain. She never spelled it out, more dropped hints and she never said how it could be done in practice.
I know its hard to compare, innocuoussocks, but what is the difference that means your DC's current teachers deliver what your DC is experiencing now versus what you experienced at the previous school?

(The feeling of being a nuisance is how I have often felt too. Plus incredibly, like the teachers were looking for someone to blame - usually me. I must be hot-housing and ruining both their childhoods and the teachers well structured plans)

That's not to say that all the teachers were bad, btw. Some were excellent. Mainly I've been writing about the bad years but there have been good ones, including last year (Y6) for Ds2 and years 5 &7 for Ds1.

Bobochic - do you mean that maths answers should be written like:-

Let A be the area of the circle and B be the area of the triangle. Whereas A>B and B=1/2bh, then....

No. Much more elaborate than that!

I wonder whether very traditional maths, where all the working out is written out in full in words, isn't easier for the clever child with a preference for words over numbers?

Huh? Which mathematicians write things out in full in "words"?

The opposite is true. Mathematicians introduce mathematical notation to write e.g.

{z: |z-a| = b}

instead of writing a sentence "The set of (complex) numbers z such that the modulus of z minus a is equal to b."

Mathematicians frequently define new words to avoid writing out longer sentences e.g. "f is a meromorphic function" instead of "f is a holomorphic function with a finite number of isolated singularities".

What on earth is the benefit of writing maths out in "longhand" and not using mathematical notation/terminology ?

Logic and using words are completely different things. Higher level school maths in the UK definitely requires logic but that logic does not necessarily need to be expressed in a lot of words.

At school, the way my father (three generations ago) did and the way French pupils still do.

The benefit is clearly not apparent to the mathematicians among you but that was my point - for some children words are very useful for understanding maths.

I was pretty good at maths at school (although my verbal IQ was the higher) and I would never want maths to be words. It would be pointless - a bit like when we lawyers write in a contract - three thousand pounds (£3000) I suppose to be on the safe side.

As for bright children the interesting part is that the academic private schools at primary level don't tend to have the problems var has found in state schools with very clever children even when everyone in the school as say 120 IQ and a few are well above that. That is partly because no one is not bright so all lessons are fairly challenging but also that those selective schools also at primary level have their top sets - most private preps eg will have a scholarship top set to age 13 and plenty will have some children giving up latin and others carrying on thus differentiating and stretching the brighter ones. So the answer to the whole thread is women get out and work time, earn a lot and do your children proud by buying them a good education,.

Its not so much that the benefit isn't clear as what you are describing isn't clear. I understand you are talking about traditional methods but I don't know what they are. Can you post an example (in english)?

DG I assume you're joking about the solution being for women to work so they can afford private?

Bobo If you mean like old o'level maths, I think it would also help able but bored mathematicians. Dd had a fab time last summer with an old o'level textbook, mainly down to the fact the wording was so alien to her. Even concepts that she already knew, or were easy to grasp straight off, became challenging because she had to translate them first.

I'm not recommending o'level maths be offered as an option to all, but I could certainly see using the outdated/ unfamiliar presentation as a way of providing challenge.

Quite possible it could work in other subjects too, but not sure myself which have changed lots in their presentation. Guessing chemistry and physics will have?

As for bright children the interesting part is that the academic private schools at primary level don't tend to have the problems var has found in state schools

Really? Because that was not the impression I got from reading innocuoussocks's post. The first school she described that was a private prep sounds just like the state schools that Var has described.

Whereas the second school where innocuoussocks's DS now attends and she says is so much better because new teachers aren't working towards some 'average' level for the children's age. Instead the focus is on each boy doing the absolute best he can. They are all given individual personalised targets for each subject, given whatever support they need and praised when they reach them sounds exactly like the one my DS attends which is not a private school but a state one.

I don't think it is a matter of state vs private. The issue is much more than that.

I'm not quite sure what you mean bobo, its a little like saying French is easier for some kids if it is written in English.

Yes, Lurked, old style O level required that specific explicit wording of maths problems.

Personally, I think it helps everyone to do school maths that way. I also think learning grammar is pretty useful too!

There are private primaries, then there are superselective private primaries. I lurked on the previous thread and this one up until now, but I have to say that I felt that I lived in a parallel universe to the experience the majority of posters were living in with bright children because of my DC is in a superselective primary school and is most certainly stretched, challenged, and does not think he is special because everyone in his year group is very bright academically - the vast majority also highly talented in other things (several national times in sports, and being grade 8 in multiple instruments is not unusual by year 5). The great thing is that gifted does not = good in maths at his school and there are so many children with talents in all subjects.

"I have to say that I felt that I lived in a parallel universe to the experience the majority of posters"

I would agree..........

Really bert. I mean, just really.

Popping up to say unhelpful and rather sour things is all well and good, but I suspect many on this thread are wondering about your motivation and also your locus ?

mominatrix you do live in a parallel universe to most people.

The majority of parents with highly able DC do not have access to a super selective primary school. And if they did, they couldn't afford it.

Surely you know that?

Maybe I should have added a but did you read that post? Lots of children with multiple grade 8s at 10 years old- several national times in sport- of course she lives in a parallel universe!!

Hey, hang on, Eric- you can't solar me for something you then do yourself!

Splat- not solar

Bertrand - can you really not distinguish between the style of your post and the style of Eric's post?

perhaps it is a parallel universe - but it is a reality, not some fictional one. It sounds like a school like this is what most posters are crying out for, but would they have the stomach to try and fight for superselection at the primary level?

Mominatrix - are you sure you aren't exaggerating just slightly? I have relatives whose DC have major music scholarships at London day schools and at boarding schools, sing in major choirs and take several instruments who were exceptionally proud with Grade 4s in Year 4 and Grade 5s in Year 6. On one or two instruments!

I think I know what Mominatrix is describing. It is amazing what money can buy you. You live in the same city, walk in the same streets, but with money nothing touches you (except ill-health).

Maybe the results she is describing are exaggerated (I don't know). For me, though, its not about the results, its about being allowed to move forward at your own pace.