That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

"G&T = especially well-behaved or compliant"

Definitely not my ds.

bobo given I did exactly that throughout secondary I don't disagree with it being a possibility. But for me it wasn't because I could. It was because I was bored and frustrated, and I didn't have any respect for someone less intelligent and less informed telling me they were right and I was wrong. It was the attitude that inspired me, and nothing else. Hence I don't believe its ability/ intelligence being on the same level that matters.

Lurked - a major IQ discrepancy between teacher and pupil isn't going to be the only variable to undermine the teacher's credibility in the pupil's eyes. But it's a major risk factor. Secondary age pupils who are quick-witted quickly pick up on teachers and judge them...

So when you set up this super selective school for all these super able children, teachers are going to have to take an IQ test before they can apply for a job?

Bert: it wasnt a question wasnt it, it was a mock? A very unkindly one "these super able children"- no wonder many children doesnt know when they mock or laugh at their "nerdy" friends it was wrong!!!

There are plenty of proxies for high IQ among adults.

"Bert: it wasnt a question wasnt it, it was a mock? A very unkindly one "these super able children"- no wonder many children doesnt know when they mock or laugh at their "nerdy" friends it was wrong!!!"

This does follow on from the previous thread, where the suggestion was made that all the exceptionally able children should be put in separate schools. Not insult was intended- although I was rather mocking the idea that teachers should be IQ tested. In my experience, by the way, the mocking and laughing at "nerdy" friends is something that people are much more afraid of happening than actually happens.

"Bertrand is consistently discriminatory towards very able DC. It's a major personality trait of hers."

No I'm not. Don't talk complete rubbish.

bert you know full well that it doesn't mean that.

My DS is pretty able across the curriculum. My DD had a spikey profile with maths being the subject she finds most difficult.

Bert: that attitude makes many more sble children afraid of showing their ability and afraid of being better than their friends and worrying they will be mocked and even bullied

The relative intelligence and knowledge base of teacher and pupil is largely irrelevant as long as both parties respect each other (I am obviously talking about teens here).

To give an example: DD, who is a native English speaker being educated in France, has been lucky to have English teachers who recognise that her English is better than theirs. Her middle school English teacher didn't try to "teach" her; he got her to prepare texts and other classroom materials for the other students to use. Good learning experience for DD (learning to write appropriately for a specific audience). Good for the teacher. Good for the other students. Win win situation.

At the same time, DD respects good teachers even if they aren't as "good" at English as her. There was one occasion last term where her current teacher (another good teacher) corrected a draft essay and made a minor error. Instead of pointing out the error, DD very diplomatically rephrased the sentence to remove the disputed word.

Respect cuts both ways: gifted students who behave themselves, cut teachers a bit of slack, recognise that they are (mostly) doing a difficult job to the best of their ability, tend to get on better at school.

Bertrand - of course you are! You are the most consistently vociferous discriminatory poster against able DC on MN. It's your raison d'etre as a poster.

In what way am I discriminatory against able dc?

DD has a high IQ (tested); maths is her worst subject.

Respect cuts both ways: gifted students who behave themselves, cut teachers a bit of slack, recognise that they are (mostly) doing a difficult job to the best of their ability, tend to get on better at school.

Not sure about that, what's your basis for that statement? My suspicion is that this may vary according to degrees of giftedness. I've read some psychologists who argue that there is an 'optimum' level of ability - equivalent to an IQ of 130, two standard deviations from the norm, which enables children to fit in, achieve within the context of a school, achieve in life. Which sounds like the students you are describing. Above this, they can have more difficulties fitting in socially and have academic needs that a school can find difficult to meet.

And from my own point of view, the only times I ever got differentiation or attention from the teachers was when I behaved badly. From that point on, I had a really good relationship with them.

opineers dd is also tested; IQ around 150

I think most of the research on giftedness suffers from sampling issues. The majority of high IQ children who get tested are those with an issue; we don't know a great deal about highly gifted children without problems. There are at least two very gifted students in DD's class (there is one student who DD says with some confidence is "cleverer than she is"), neither of whom has significant behavioural issues and both of whom are all rounders. Both are socially well integrated too despite being a year younger than peers.

I don't know how old your DD is but maths was my DD's least good subject until about Y9. However, the more abstract it gets, the better her results. It's her "best" subject now (although I still have my doubts about how fundamentally able she is at maths).

I'd like to know how Bertrand is "discriminatory", too...

Can I just check. When we say "very able" is that actually a synonym for "being very very good at Maths"?

In our case, ever since DS had his first reports on reception we were told that he was performing above average across the curriculum (specifically reading, maths and even writing despite his reluctance to write and this being he least favourite activity).

Early in Y1 he became a so called "free reader". But luckily for us, he wasn't the only one. There was another student that was the same, and for a while they used to have phonics with the year above. Midway through the year there was a small group of about five children of similar reading abilities and within this group they could read varied challenging texts and have discussions about them in guided reading.

Writing is probably easier to differentiate as other people have mentioned. There was another student in his class that was quite talented or "gifted" at writing, so he wasn't the only one. And from what I can see in Y2 when they have to write about something at school, whereas some children are celebrated for having written three full sentences on their own, DS is celebrated when he writes a full page or more on his own. Each child is taught at their right pace and the expectations go according to their abilities.

Whereas Maths was mentioned at parent's evening as something that the teacher was a bit concerned about (to my surprise!). Because it so happens that according to the teacher there were no other students at the same level as him even among her most able group. She thought he was missing from the experience and spark that comes from working with peers that are of similar ability and wanted to do something about it.

I don't know if this means that "very able" in his case means that he is "being very very good at Maths", but it just so happens that as a result of the cohort where he happens to be at the moment the teacher felt he was a bit isolated within his own year group.

Well we clearly have lost at the school lotery, both at primary and secondary :(

My dcs are like Elle's dcs, outliers anyway because they are bilingual/bicultural (the cultural side actually is another biggie because they do react in different ways than their peers even though they've only lived in the UK).
So to be made to feel 'weird'/different/annoying' by teachers because they are able and are keeping on their toes doesn't help them to actually feel fully integrated in the school tbh.
So Yes dc1 IS worried about looking even more nerdy. And he IS avoiding learning more than he already knows.
My experience is that it still happens that students are avoiding showing their knowledege, avoiding learning, to try and fit in.....

I'm a bit al loss re some of the comments and teachers making minor mistakes or needing a high IQ. We all make mistakes whatever our IQ. Expecting teachers to know everything or to never make mistakes is strange tbh. However, a teacher not knowing something quite fundamental is another.
So we have dc1 primary school teacher who has no background in science who was puzzled by a text he had written about radioactivity.She said so, gave it to the HT (who could understand it) and they had a quick chat about it.
Compare that with the science teacher who didn't know some of the elements in the period table... That one didn't get dc1 respect and tbh I can't blame him.

Just popping back to say thank you for helping Ds progress with reading levels (yr2). I asked what he needed to demonstrate to get onto the next reading level and found yesterday that they have moved him up, he came home with a note in his reading diary asking me to see how he got on with the new level. Admittedly at 6yrs old, he struggled with the pronunciation of some native German words (the little rascal picked a non fiction book about adolf hitler which led to an indepth chat about the guy, not what I had planned post swimming lessons and over a pre bedtime/post swim supper, but still..). Thank you everyone.

WoodHeaven you refer to a teacher not knowing something quite fundamental.

This isn't a gifted issue surely ... It's a teacher recruitment issue that affects all students, not just the most able. Teachers should at the very least be adequatedly educated and competent in their subjects, or it's not just the brightest kids who suffer! Or are incompetent teachers good enough for thick kids?!

My kids are also bilingual/ bicultural and I don't feel it makes them outsiders ... if anything it's an advantage for gifted children because being taught in a foreign language provides additional stimulation. DD has opted for a bilingual high school programme which involves teaching in a third language.

I agree that gifted children benefit hugely from plurilingual education. In Paris and surrounding areas the bilingual schools and international sections are full of gifted DC who needed the extra depth of plurillingual education in order to capture their attention. It mostly works quite well.

Oh yes I agree. That's not a high iq issue.

You see dc1 has always found himself an outlier and has told me often, as young as 7 or 8yo, that he felt different sand he felt he was treated differently too (I'm absolutely not sure of that tbh. But then we are living g in a small town, very MC and very attached to how things are supposed to be done.
No bilingual schools here otherwise both dcs would have bee there in a shot.

It's always the same thing. In some environment, being bilingual is a strong positive. In another, the negatives abound. For one child with one temperament. It doesn't matter when another struggles more with it.

First up, I haven't read the previous thread so apologies if this has been said before.

My DS taught himself to read age 2. We had no idea until nursery called us to ask how long he'd been able to do it. Within a week they asked us to send in books for him as theirs weren't challenging enough. They then decided to see what he was like with numbers. His nursery teacher was fascinated by how quickly he learned and by the time he left for reception he was able to read pretty much anything (and comprehend it), would write his own little stories and was doing basic addition and subtraction. Of course in early years they have very high staff to child ratios

He then started school where he was pretty much left entirely to his own devices for the next 2 years. At the first parents' evening the teacher was very defensive and basically told us that she was aware of what DS could do but we needed to understand that the rest of the children couldn't so she would be devoting her attention on getting them to 'catch up'. DS spent most of his time reading quietly in the corner having finished his class work quickly. Most of his maths lessons were spent reading because he'd get through the class work quickly. We asked for extension work - or for them to give him extra work on his weaker areas (terrible handwriting) if he finished class work early. They weren't keen. It seemed as if they were actively trying to slow his progress and they repeatedly told us it was only a temporary problem as the other children would catch up after a few years.

DS is luckily easy going and was still happy at school - he is always happy if he has a book - but it was apparent to us that they viewed his abilities as more of pain than a talent.

This was at a private prep so we did the 7+ and moved him for the start of year 3. The difference is unbelievable and he is so much more enthused and stimulated. Before, if we asked about school we'd hear about lunch and playtime he now comes home full of he discoveries they've made in science or the new methods they are learning in maths.

What is interesting is that it isn't because he is now only surrounded by super able pupils (although there are definitely more than average) - the school's main intake was at 4 so selection was limited to a short interview apart from the boys who joined later. His class has a huge range of abilities and quite a few boy with SEN. The real difference is that his new teachers aren't working towards some 'average' level for the children's age. Instead the focus is on each boy doing the absolute best he can. They are all given individual personalised targets for each subject, given whatever support they need and praised when they reach them.

It's about looking at each child as an individual and it's something that the private sector can be just as bad at as state schools. I suspect because school management, by necessity, judge a teacher and a class' success by looking at the average performance, that is where most teachers devote their time.

I think bright kids are often bright across the board. Maths tends to be a problem in class as it asks closed questions a lot. If a worksheet is far too easy in maths then they're just not learning anything. No way to answer the same questions at a higher level as they could in most other subjects.