That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

because at the end of the day, they are children, first and foremost.

Bertrand if you are out there, you'll like this bit. You an tell us about why more able children don't deserve to be cherished as all adult focus should be on the least able.

What annoyes dc1 even more is that he doesn't think these awards make any difference at all. So the ones that create mayhem just carry on creating mayhem.

He will acknowledge happily that a child who was struggling and worked hard to do xxx should be recognised though. Actually he is always impressed by those who do that, regardless of what is their actual level.
It's the idea that an award like this could be used as a carrot for good behaviour that escapes him (and me too!)

I think DC who don't know how to behave or knuckle down to work at school need really clear boundaries drawn as to which behaviors are rewarded and which are punished. And the rules need to be universal. Once you start bending them on a case by case basis the whole thing becomes meaningless.

Bobochic - but then you need to factor in SEN such as ASD, ADHD etc. whether diagnosed or not (or not yet).

I think sometimes schools forget that rules are for the common good, not for the individual.

The problem is that you end telling children with high abilities that the fact they have these abilities isn't important....

"he doesn't think these awards make any difference at all. "

EEF spent over a million on research (published last term) that says it mostly doesn't: educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/projects/pupil-effort-programme/

Bllody hell, they were planning to PAY children to behave ?!?

Bloody hell. They were planning to PAY children to behave in class?!?

Yay! We've stopped talking about Maths!

Actually, the thread has moved to another topic that I feel strongly about. I feel very strongly that if my children are particularly good at something, that's fantastic, but the things that they are less good at are far more important. So if I had an incredibly able child who was upset because they didn't get a prize, my line would be (well, it would have been all along, not just a prize giving) "Why would you get a price for something you find really easy? You're really lucky- you don't find doing Maths/sitting still/paying attention/whatever difficult. That is going to make your life much easier. Jimmy does find it really difficult. So of course he should get a prize. He's going to have a much harder life than you are because he struggles with things you find easy. But I think you're the best thing since sliced bread and you actually are incredibly good at X so we're going NOW to get the biggest ice cream in the world."

You can be a genius mathematician, but the sort of person you are is what makes you happy.

But when prizes only come for attainment and behaviour, then what are they supposed to do to get a prize? Or are they supposed to not care about prizes? Or not care about prizes except when other people get them because that's really great? or?

Why would you want a prize for something that takes no effort on your part?

Actually at least 2 of the DC have worked out exactly how to get a prize, if they want one badly enough. Show some volatility of behaviour and / or attainment.

All, can I ask you all who have your children in secondary are they in super selective grammar or private please?

Yeah, well, if mine showed the slightest sign of doing that then the would be blood for breakfast...........

I don't agree that, because it looks easy to outsiders (no visible fuss, sweat or tears), high attainers are not required to put in effort - sometimes a great deal of effort - to reach their achievements. I feel incredibly stringy about this in fact, because I was one of those DC who didn't fuss and just got on with it. Many people, including my own parents, thought I didn't deserve praise because everything came easily. The easy bit was for them not for me!

strongly

or none of the above??

Me! I am none of the above: My two are a normal comprehensive.

As many parents comment on here that their able children don't get work difficult enough that matches their ability, it will be very difficult for them to get an award that recognises they worked really hard to get something done.

Then, maybe a special award for those who manage to endure boredom ad infinitum and endless repetition of something they have proved hundreds of time they already know how to do should be created!

Maybe lay off the prize/level obsession? Might that be a good plan?

Then, maybe a special award for those who manage to endure boredom ad infinitum and endless repetition of something they have proved hundreds of time they already know how to do should be created!

Well, yes, that does require some strength of character and probably is worth some official recognition. A bit like the US troops that played "Baby, hit me one more time" to the Iraqi POW until they cracked and allowed themselves to be interrogated.

Will it be better in a very selective school? Will these issues go away? Or only for super selective private where you might have many boxes ticked?

Mine are both in ordinary comprehensives though not in the UK. DD is in a bilingual class with selective entry.

The question of "how much effort" can be hard to answer. DD doesn't appear to work hard, but she works very efficiently and effectively. I'm not sure it's true that she works less hard than other students, but it's certainly true that she works more effectively than most.

DS is much less efficient.

Well, I think it's wrong if the able children never get some sort of recognition while everybody else does (based on improvement of behaviour or only effort). Every single child must have something worthy of recognition.

At DS's school from what I have seen, every child gets certificates regularly. The teacher chooses 3 or 4 children each week and gives them a certificate for something good or special they did that week. So, it might be that one week some children are given praise for having completed two or three full sentences by themselves (a target that would be far to easy for DS), but the following week he might get one certificate praising the fact that he wrote a full page by himself.

When they are in "all shall have prizes" primary school bear of the week territory, then of course the most able children should get their turn- and I'm sure they do.