That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

Secondary maths levels are a crock here. DD had the primary L6 ceiling and a KS2 L6 SAT pass is formally a 6b in data-droid world. At some secondary Y7 parents intro. meeting the school proudly mentioned how they have high expectations for maths and expect one whole level progress per year.

Y7: DD's end-Y7 target was 6b + 1 whole level = 7b and so was the teacher's prediction. They have formal termly exams with level specific papers and DD got 7b, 7a, 7a, but the final report said her level was their predicted 7b.

Y8: DD's current end-Y8 target is 7b + 2 sub-levels = 8c. Ignoring the depressed final verdict from last year, where-oh-where is that one whole level progress? The exam at the end of autumn term produced an 8a.

I predict the next two Y8 exams will be 8a, 8a (can't get anything higher) and the final report will say her level is 8c. Then in Y9 the target and teacher prediction will be 8c + 2 sub-levels = 8a, the exams will be 8a, 8a, 8a (again can't get anything higher) and final report will concur with the exams for the very first time and say 8a.

It's clearly about spreading progress across the KS3 data, possibly so Y9 teachers don't look bad. It really annoys me that we're expected to take these levels seriously and they don't/won't admit it's tosh at parents' evening.

Lurked, as a gifted kid, I'd have felt very short-changed by that. Chess was okay, mainly because I was good at it, but it wasn't what I loved. If they'd given me maths puzzles in the same situation I'd have been happy. Or just let me bring in some mathsy reading from home.

PiqueABoo, I'd imagine they'd say that they can't assess her as level 7a because they haven't covered all the level 7 material in class? Question: if your DD was coming home saying how fun and challenging her maths lessons were, would you still worry about levels?

No one is saying force every mathsy kid to play chess. It was a suggestion, not a diktat.

Irvine I said python/javascript sounded a bit heavy because I associate javascript at least (don't know much about python) with work and dull stuff. I pictured your lad sitting through some turgid online course aimed at adults. That's why I asked what he was doing with it.

I was talking to lurked there not you noble. I don't think I'm even particularly disagreeing with you a lot of the way. Chess or coding or maths puzzles are great things for mathsy kids to do, as takes their taste. And yes parents should ideally be helping to offer those opportunities. (A lot of schools do too. )
Where I disagree is that this should somehow make up to the kids for being bored silly in maths lessons. I find it hard to believe a maths teacher would say that, but can't see how you are not saying so when you say learning chess for example is an appropriate substitute for challenging maths. If maths is boring and chess/coding is interesting, don't you think you're just likely to end up with chess players and coders instead of mathematicians? Or kids like my DH who go into maths because it's always easy so they think they're brilliant at it, only to discover that they don't actually know how to approach it when it becomes hard? (He played chess and all.)

noble, have you looked at computer programming on khan? there's nothing boring about it.

"Your maths hub sounds great, teacher, but it does make the whole provision very local. Clearly something national is needed."

My understanding is that, between them, the Maths hubs form a national network - see the website I linked to.

Obviously if you're at the furthest reaches of the 'patch' of one of the hubs, it may be harder to access the 'physical' resources they offer (though I have been on training courses with teachers from those far flung schools, and also attended courses in 'satellite' schools run by Hub staff)

cat I'm not suggesting its the ideal replacement for maths lessons. But if the other option is the mind numbing boredom of lessons years behind your level of understanding, then its a definite improvement.

I find it hard to believe a maths teacher would say that, but can't see how you are not saying so when you say learning chess for example is an appropriate substitute for challenging maths. If maths is boring and chess/coding is interesting, don't you think you're just likely to end up with chess players and coders instead of mathematicians.

No, you end up with more broadly rounded individuals who enjoy UKMT, BMO etc when offered it a little later.

I did no maths whatsoever for about 2 years at school - read Shakespeare instead. This probably did me far more good in the long run than the year I got taught university level linear algebra by an enthusiastic PhD educated maths teacher. Ultimately to be a top mathematician you have to be creative, and creativity is fostered by a rich breadth of experiences.

The main approach of the top private schools in the UK is to offer a broader and deeper curriculum. Most talented maths students in such schools have such a full and diverse programme of activities that moderate differentiation in maths (nrich etc) is sufficient to keep them going until they can access challenging maths such as UKMT, BMO, cipher challenges, STEP papers etc.

Agree about Kahn, and also code.org which is even more accessible as a starting point. DD is just 9 and loves both of those.

It makes sense what disquisitiones says. The key with advanced maths is not to be able to count or to have memorised times tables but to be able to use your brain to think. I don't mean that to sound condescending.

Being able to count, add up, multiply, divide etc are all invaluable life skills, that you'll struggle without. So, its very appropriate that all children learn these things before they grow up.

Something else that no one ever mentions for developing a maths brain is writing contracts. You have to be precise, you have to try to be succinct and efficient, you have to set them out in a logical way and you have to describe the conditions, how to define success and what constitutes failure and what happens in all eventualities.

disqui yep agree with broadening horizons. I also believe that maybe as parent the areas where we should put the emphasis on is where our dc is the weakest, not the strongest (for academic stuff. Music or sports for example are a different issue).
However, 2 years not doing a lot in maths is one thing. What a lot of posters are talking about is 10+ years at school going at snail pace. Do you think it will be OK for these children to read during half of the lessons? What sort of message is it going to give to the child and to the other children?
For those of us for who private education is out of reach, that's what our dcs are facing.
eg: at our school they do the UKMT. That is, the children enter the challenge but aren't given any time to prepare or to do anything about it. Will that keep them going? What the heck.

var I would have done the same than you, review what he will be tested on. Imo, as this is what the test is about, wether it's what is supposed to be taugh 2 years later or not doesn't matter. They have talked about it class therefore they should revise that subject (which is what you did).
I also believe that teaching a child to lay his answers in maths when it just isn't done within the classroom isn't accelerated them. They aren't doing it anyway. Just as teaching them precision and the like of excellence (which is also not taught. There is much more of 'that will do' type of approach)

Pique I have to say, I actually don't care about levels anymore. I have seen the same thing at our secondary. They will NOT accept that a child has gone faster than the 2 sub levels because it then means they have to up their game the following years (and get a wider and wider gap).
So that means that my bilingual child has been given a target of 4a in French when he also did the GCSE papers and got an A*...
It means that same child was given the 'maximum' level in Y2 for the SATS (was it 2a??) even though he was much more able than that. I was told this is the maximum the test allows. That way, when dc1 arrived in Y6, they didn't have to show the was a level 7 or whetever for show progress.
I have told dc1 that whilst his levels are an indication of what he can do, they are NOT a reflection of what he can acheive. ie he has to acheive that much but might well actually have a level much higher up.

WoodHeaven - thanks. Laying out your answers properly is not optional though. I don't know when school teach it these days, but you'll never be able to write a proof without knowing how to lay it out, so it has to be taught some time.
Other people have to be able to follow what you've done but DS2's current offering of various bits scribbled around the page without any words beside the workings are extremely difficult to follow (and that's without mistakes creeping in).

dc1 very big issue though is the fact he feels there is NO recognition for his work.

What he sees is:

• rewards for those who create mayhem (the 'Golden Awards' given for 'improved' behaviour during that week)
• sometimes rewards for those who have made a big leap.
• no reward for those at the top who are well behaved, always have really good results etc...

If you add that to the fact that, once they have reached that glass ceiling, they are supposed just 'deepend their understanding' which isn't monitored so you can't see your progress (It's there so the child isn't too bored right?), how do you want them to stay motivated and want to do better. They have nothing to aim at.

var I fully agree with you. Learning to lay out answer is essential.
Learning to take care of details is too (And at some point if you have a very laid back approach to problem solving, it WILL be an issue too).

No idea when they learn that or it is supposed to 'just happen'. But I'm certainly going to teach that to dc1 (and dc2) because my plan is to teach them 'thinking and reasonning' and I don't believe that the current system will allow them to go the depth they get to.
I'm not aiming at preparing them to be great at maths or science or history. I want to prepare them to be able to have the skills they need as an adult (whihc include critical analysis of newspaper articles, a skill taught taught in history, reasonning abilities, that will serve them everywhere, etc etc).
And that will mean covering some things as we go along in a very 'natural' way, just as it happens. And that will means doing some much more structured work.

"Something else that no one ever mentions for developing a maths brain is writing contracts. You have to be precise, you have to try to be succinct and efficient, you have to set them out in a logical way and you have to describe the conditions, how to define success and what constitutes failure and what happens in all eventualities."

I think it really works well on these skills when writing code. When I see ds trying out something and keep adjusting and testing until he gets the results he wants. Or did I completely misunderstood what you mean?

YY to the inadequacies of the reward system!
Just be honest. Little Maisie isn't getting a reward for having done great work, she's getting a reward for having done better work than she usually does. And little Freddie isn't behaving in an exemplary way, but he is making some effort to improve his previously disruptive behaviour and that's something to be grateful for.
As adults, we can see this as clear as day. however, when you are under 10, you might wonder why never misbehaving, always trying to do what you are told and delivering correct answers to all the questions the teacher set you, is apparently not worth a mention.
Ds2 figured out what was going on when he was about 9. So, he deliberately put his hand up every time until he was asked and then gave the wrong answer. he noticed that the teacher would be likely to notice him after that for a little while until she got used to hearing the right answers again.

(Actually far from pleasing me, i was a bit unnerved by the cold, but accurate, manipulation when he told me that).

poster irvine101 - you understood me perfectly. Its the same thing. You tightly define something, often by using loose language, and then you do an if then else statement.

catkind "I'd imagine they'd say that they can't assess her as level 7a because they haven't covered all the level 7 material in class?"

You have a generous imagination

For reference, last year David Didau wrote a blog post on the theme of problem solving based on a comp Y10 lesson they visited where the children all got shiny GCSE A*s in Y9 and they were working on senior, age 16-19, UKMT stuff (they were supposed to find it scary and struggle).

DD's comp is probably a bit above average and it's one of the random luckier years in terms of higher ability. They were given a 50 question L6 paper a few weeks into Y7, consolidated/patched the class L6-ness a bit, then moved on. L7 was well-covered by the end of the year.

"Question: if your DD was coming home saying how fun and challenging her maths lessons were, would you still worry about levels?"

No, subject to the lessons being credible maths-stuff which doesn't have to be NC. I can judge that reasonably well, but how does a typical parent determine whether the 'fun' is the right kind of fun? DD enjoyed maths in Y7, but that doesn't mean it was challenging or without some significant thumb-twiddling time. She's long accustomed to the latter and has one of those personalities that can absorb it.

Over the weekend DD restated her desire to do maths at university so we're kind of OK, but she'll eventually be competing with some lucky children who have been doing the above UKMT stuff since they were 14 etc.

On rewards, one of DD's better lines last year was: "What I should have done is pretended I couldn't do it. Then cried."

She wouldn't do that because she's a limelight avoiding introvert who doesn't cry. I think a bit more recognition would help, but not too much because I don't want self-motivation replaced with extrinsic stuff.

I think dc1 has some issue with feeling that he is 'seen' and that his teachers actually care.
If 3 years in a row, no one ever thought about giving the 'golden award' in the year or they clearly have gone the list and then realise 'Ooops, we forgot dc1, let's give a reward now before he leaves our class', ot not good for their self esteem nor does it convey the teacher keeps an eye on them.

"then you do an if then else statement"

IF ( ( education ) AND ( child is an underdog ) ) THEN { do something! }
ELSE { just ignore the consequences for anyone else }

After 18 months in a new primary school, the only award that Ds had received / the only official bit of praise he had been given was for "settling in well". Taken for granted much?

PiqueABoo - very good!

or how about this:-

IF {child may get less than a level 4B}, THEN {throw everything you can think of at them}, ELSE {{IF child is

It is truly crap when obedient, engaged pupils don't get any recognition from teachers.