That glass ceiling! Part 2

[var123]

Continuing the discussion about artificial limits placed on G&T children, and the resulting impact on their health and happiness (not to mention futures).

Do they really matter less because they have a perceived "advantage"?!

original thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/2507232-The-glass-ceiling-for-very-able-children?

So, its limited but there's limited time. No child could cover everything no matter what manner of future genius they were. Understood.
However, some children have enough time to fully cover the curriculum and learn about some of the other stuff, but they get deliberately held back in the interests of herding the class along together with the result that they don't get the chance to go off-piste.

BertrandRussell -

English and history - children are much less restricted. They can progress just by choosing to go into more depth in an essay say.

Maths and Science - they have a closed question. There is only so much you can say. Once you've given the answer there's no scope for improving it by thinking more deeply. e.g. balance these chemical equations: here is the one and only answer

var when that happens in other subjects like PE or music, parents shell out for tuition, coaching, extra curricular. They don't demand that the PE teacher coaches their kid to international level, and say that their kid is being failed by the school when they don't. It's accepted that school is there to provide the normal curriculum.

Obviously schools should provide normal stretching stuff for the most able, like an extra maths GCSE where possible, and entry to the maths challenges too.

noblegiraffe - I understand your point about things being out of date quickly (thanks to the govt of the day continually changing things). And you just know that when Labour are next in power, it will all radically change again...

What about publishing online then? Instead of a hard printed textbook, have a website that can be continually updated and refreshed?

"What about publishing online then? Instead of a hard printed textbook, have a website that can be continually updated and refreshed?"

That is exactly what the pupil part of most secondary schools' websites are (or link to). Most are behind password-protected walls, because they link to paid-for verified content sites, and so aren't necessarily 'visible' to the general public.

var who is paying for this website?

Incidentally, what you are describing sounds less good than e.g. Mymaths which has interactive lessons and self-marking homework.

Noblegiraffe - I think your last post probably answers my very first question.

If children can do more, their parents should pay for it. School will do a little (although an extra GCSE, if offered, is more than a little) but there is a glass ceiling, and we only pretend that your child will be challenged irrespective of ability. If you need more then pay for it and do it in your own time.

"What about publishing online then? Instead of a hard printed textbook, have a website that can be continually updated and refreshed?"

I'm sorry if I'm being thick, but why?

subscribers pay for a website. Subscribers being schools. Or the dept of education builds it and gives log ins to all schools.

"teacher - teacher training (PGCE) is designed as a crash course so that prospective teachers aren't thrown to the wolves. It's not, very unfortunately, a properly researched exercise in best practice."

Bobo, can you cite your sources? What would you suggest is the (properly researched, of course) best practice that we should learn from?

There is also the point that many primary teachers, and some secondary, do BEd degrees instead of PGCE - would you say that they were better? Worse? Or, like the PGCE, perhaps better from some institutions (Cambridge) than from others (Gloucestershire) but always better than no training at all?

var if that's what happens and is accepted in other subjects, my query is why is it not accepted for maths?

State education is free. There have to be limits because money and resources are limited.

Oh, sorry, misunderstood - I was picturing things like MyMaths and similar interactive sites with explanations, video links etc (or the school putting together a page for the specific unit that links to reliable resources) Not a static page of text and questions....

"Maths and Science - they have a closed question. There is only so much you can say. Once you've given the answer there's no scope for improving it by thinking more deeply. e.g. balance these chemical equations: here is the one and only answer"

Really?

This publishing online and keeping updated is heavily connected to what i do for a living now.

The benefits of publishing online versus sending off to the printers are that you can address accessibility issues (bigger font, voice software etc) and you can keep more easily up to date.
The disadvantages are the hardware requirements, the need for a good internet connection and the lack of practice in using a pen or pencil.

var- just checking. Have you looked at your school's website?

BertrandRussell - yes, really!

Istead of just askign questions, why don't you argue for what you do think. Although I'd love to hear how you explain that closed questions aren't limiting and open questions are limiting.

You only get subscribers once the website is up and running, that's a massive initial outlay on a potentially duff project which will be competing with existing resources. There are electronic textbooks out there which are endorsed by the exam boards e.g. Oxford university press does one. It's just a bit rubbish.

BertrandRussell Sat 30-Jan-16 10:04:33
var- just checking. Have you looked at your school's website?

Yes, why? What's that got to do with it?

noblegiraffe - I would not suggest that an individual teacher takes on a project of this magnitude. It would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to do a project of this nature. You'd need something like the dept of education behind it.

anyway, we digress.

Of course closed questions are limiting. But I didn't realise that Maths and science were restricted to closed questions. I naively assumed that a very able mathematician would think around and about the subject like an able historian. And possibly make a few leaps forward without actively being taught.

global.oup.com/education/secondary/kerboodle/maths/gcse-maths-kerboodle-book/?region=uk

Electronic textbooks are already available.

But, like I said before, the textbooks are crap.

The DofE couldn't organise a single textbook, they couldn't even force a single exam board.

BertrandRussell- yes, that is naive. Have a look at an online maths paper - soemthing that you'd find ultra-easy. say the KS2 sats and ask yourself what scope there is for thinking around the issues like an able historian might.

If you genuinely think that 'proper Maths' is something that has a single 'right', closed answer, then have a look at the nrich site. Yes, some have 'right' answers, some do not.

Even very basic primary Maths doesn't always have a 'right' answer - or has several right answers.

Say the four 4s problem. Can you make all the numbers between 1 and 20 using four 4s, and the 4 operations? (You can make this harder or easier by allowing square root, factorials or powers). Extensions are easy - can you do it with four of another number? Five 4s?

It's accessible to any child who can add, subtract, multiply and divide using 1 and 2 digit numbers, and has many 'equally right' answers.

There's more stuff here, though some of the chat around it isn't entirely to my taste:
www.youcubed.org/week-of-inspirational-math/

I think Maths for the gifted is hugely harmed by the attitude that 'Maths is only Maths if it is a calculation that leads to a single right answer'.

In the Science example given, the simple extra question 'Explain why' would involve a student in a lot of harder thinking around electron diagrams, stable states etc.

I think some children doesn't need to listen to teacher explain everything to them. They get it. somehow.
I tried this with my ds yesterday which was on the other thread, of course he doesn't know everything, but answered most things correctly, without learning these in school yet.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/439299/Sample_ks2_EnglishGPS_paper1_questions.pdf

Also, I tried this one last year, he scored 131 points, which is advanced level. I assume he gets it from reading extensively.

englishteststore.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10713&Itemid=130

I don't have problem extending him with other subject so much(at the moment), but I really think he needs help from school to deepen his understanding, because I don't know how.