maths in schools

[var123]

I know this isn't a G&T thing specifically, but its come about because I've started working through a maths GCSE textbook with DS1 and I really don't fancy having to explain and justify that decision as I would have to on other parts of mumsnet.

So, I started teaching DS1 yesterday. The first thing we did was go through and mark what he already knows. He has learned some sophisticated stuff at school. However, he didn't know how to do long multiplication! He can do the grid method, but not the method that generations of children have learned.

Ditto long division.

So, the first thing I have to do with my highly able 13 year old is to teach him the stuff that I learned halfway through primary school

It sounds like she maybe needs to "show her working" - so lay out step by step all the things she did to solve the problem. I imagine the teacher wants her to show the methods she's using to solve things.

We were told that to demonstrate mastery under the new curriculum, the students should be able to solve a problem in a variety of ways, showing their working each time. DD is finding it a bit dull, though - once she's solved a problem she doesn't much enjoy coming up with other ways to get the same answer she'd rather carry on doing something different.

You are in the right place: your DD is in G&T by ability, if not be official label.

Also, your problem is quite common (my younger son also encountered it, although he wasn't told he'd have to move down a group if he didn't resolve the issue).

Its a common issue and I've grappled with it for the last five years, since DS2 was in year 2, but I don't know the solution. The answer just flashes into their brain. Even if they can explain and justify it, they have limited patience to do so.

A Y2 example for DS2 was:-
"calculate 8+2". He answered 10 but was marked wrong because he had failed to draw 2 dots, then a plus sign, then draw 8 dots, then an equals sign and then count all the dots and write 10.

That's what the school wanted, and to this day, Ds2 would refuse to deliver such a solution. Or he'd do 3 examples and then just scribble down the rest of the answers. He doesn't see the point of the exercise. He thinks the objective is to teach him what 8+2 equals and he's proving he knows the answer.

So, maybe the solution is for your DD's teacher to explain to her (and you) why she needs to show workings. Give her some motivation for doing it, something she can understand and see the point of, rather just threatening her.

Ds2 is now in year 7 and he finally shows workings. However, if the others in his class are answering a 2 step problem (say), DS2 will write down a maximum of 2 steps whilst the school would like to see 7.

My ds had same problem, and teacher made "showing working out" his target every term.
He still struggle with it, and still prefers to do it in his head, but he's getting better now.

On the other thread, a lot of teachers advised me that secondary and afterwards, maths is all about proof. Also you could get marks for working out even answer is wrong.
So I think it maybe a good idea for her to practice to show how she got the answer in primary.

Irvine, I've got a son in year 9 and another in year 7, both in G&T for maths, so quite advanced and having done a lot of the regular work as well as the differentiation on offer.
I can only think of one time when either of them have had to prove something. It was Ds1 and it was quite recently. I think ti was in the GCSE prep.
So, maybe its a major part of KS4 (i.e. GCSE), or maybe the teachers meant A levels, but there are several years before then when you don't need to prove anything unfortunately, although you would drop a couple of marks in the KS2 sats if you don't show workings.

I did maths at uni too, and yes, there you seem to spend 90% of your time proving things, and it all becomes quite philosophical. I used to yearn for something with a number or even a named variable in it!

Maybe I must have misunderstood, they may have been talking about Ks4.
I really haven't got a clue about maths, especially in England! Sorry.

Well anyway, my ds hates writing in general, so I would just continue to pester him to show workings for time being.
Thank you.

Thanks so much for all your advices and sharing your stories, its such a huge relief to know that your LOs had/have the same issue.

I dont think she is talented to be honest although she is able. She had a difficult year last year in maths as her teacher recognised her ability at beginning of school year but didnt do anything apart from telling us to slow her down(as if we do anything with her maths as I dont teach her anything yet). There wasnt a group im yr2 last year apart from 3 level of qs at maths lesson(cool, spicy, extra spicy). She always started with extra spicy and it took her only few mins and the rest of the lesson she was bored. She complained about being bored everyday but I told her she should find smth else to do(to be honest I thought she was young and if she did the extra spicy and got it all correct then she had more free time to play). She then ended teaching other children and got 2 detention due to drawing on her friends shirts during maths lessons and we were called to school for this.

This year at least she stops complaining being bored the last few weeks(mainly because the school was busy with singing and preparing for assembly and midterm break). In my meet the teacher then I was told that even she always the fastest and got all qs right in her group she isnt the top of this group as she does poorly in explaining the results.

I tried to ask her at home how did you get to this result then she normaly finds some otherway to do it still come to the same result and she said mom I dont know. To be honest I dont know what is the best way to explain the result either and what should be the best way to gain the marks

Due to childcare issue since this tear she has to go to explore centre which I am not very fond of but she likes it as she is at year 5 level in maths and always get 100% and get the rewarding cards then she could save these cards for a choice of rewarding toys later.

To be honest I know the importance of going deeper in concept and being able to know well why there was that result but I dont know how to help her with that. Her maths are still simple mostly time tables, moneys, clocks, decimals and many times some reasoning types of questions. I was told to look at nrich but to be honest I havent got the full use of the site, not too sure where to start

In the current maths GCSE there are certain questions which are marked on "Quality of Written Communication" where you'd need to show the stages of your working clearly to get full marks (e.g. working out how much it would cost to tile a floor, so the working would need to show Area of floor=x, so number of tiles = y, so cost of tiles = z, qualifying for discount Q, so total cost = T). Because of this it is good to practice writing solutions clearly and logically - not scribbled jottings in the back of a book.

In other questions you will usually get full marks for a correct answer with no working but if you make a mistake in your head you get 0, where if you have an incorrect answer but some correct stages of working on paper, you can still get some of the marks. That's mainly why we bang on about showing working.

But really, students need to get beyond thing of the purpose of maths as getting 'the answer'. The real skill is in presenting a solution which will convince a marker that your answer is correct, not by chance, but because you actually know what you are doing.

Expecting working to be shown for 8+2 is lunacy though!

I haven't got a clue about Nrich either. I know it's great, but contents are so huge.
I normally let him explore and choose what he wants to do.

Thank you Noble, for explaining.
DS's reception teacher set his target for showing working for three terms,
so obviously he needed to learn to do this. But not for 8 + 2 though..
How do you do that? Draw 8 dots + 2 dots ?
but that's going backwards for able children...

I dont allow her ipad/computer or too much tv so she has never got a chance to look at this site herself(main reason is she will be on you tubes rather than nrich). After school she normally spends time in the playground, playing at home with her sister or having some clubs or music lessons at home. We havent given her extra work yet(mainly because we work full time and long hours so there is very little time to sit down in the evening). We did give her Bond books last year age 8-9(when she wasnt even 7) and she finished it too fast and we were told to slow her down so we stopped

You can print out some problems from nrich for her to do, when you are not with her.

It's completely different from normal maths you do at school, some problems my ds tried took ages to solve and he loved it.

But a lot of interactives are really good too.

It was draw 8 dots and then draw 2 dots... I remember it clearly as it was the example from his workbook that the Y2 teacher and I used to discuss how Ds2 was not showing his working and how that was simply not good enough. February 2011 was the date - I remember that meeting well!

The HT was there too because I'd already marked myself as a problem parent, so she was there to support the young teacher whilst trying to pretend to me that she'd just selected my meeting by chance out of the 200 going on in the school that night.

I remarked that Ds2 found this work easy and the HT patronisinglyexplained that its not easy for a 6/7 year old.

At that point, I realised that they would just say black is white if it suited them and would never be willing to recognise that he needed something more. I thought the school was just a bad one, and I managed to move the boys that summer to an ostensibly good school, but we hit the same problems there.

and the teacher's frustrated outburst that night - the only time when she actually spoke within anything other than calm detachment was "you need to tell your DS2 to slow down".

(So take heart - its just what they say. Its not genuine advice.)

My ds's Yr1 teacher said he had massive gap in knowledge, because he couldn't answer "inverse" question. Turned out he didn't know what "inverse" means. If she said "opposite" he would have understood. It was beginning of YR1... he never heard the word before. She really made sure that we understood that DS wasn't that able.

But that was unlucky year. Both rec and YR2 teacher were great.

Yep, we are told this year that it wasnt right to leave her that bored last year and told her to slow down(but then didnt do anything about it).

We are in an outstanding state school, she loves her school but to be honest the level of learning is medium or low and very little or no support for more able children. You are also forbidden to tell your friends and or the parents at the school how well your child is doing(just recently learnt that lesson).

I dont know much about school here as I didnt go to schools in uk so very little knowledge. My time with her is very limited so I always more focused on her stuffs like lunch, friendship, whether she was happy what did she play. Only coming to this year when I start leaning about 11+ then I know its time to fight and focus on education more

Irvine, will do the printing tomorrow after having a proper look, thank you

DD (year 4) was given an Nrich problem in school this week, called the Deca Tree. She loved it! And wants me to print more out at home for her to look at.

Except I find Nrich really confusing and don't know where to start...but that one might be worth a look.

Yes, I was looking sometime last year but it was hard to find the bit we could print, tonight looking slightly harder then there are bits we can print.

So my aim for this year is more writing and talking maths rather than working problems.

Apart from Nrich is there any other books/resources would you recommend

Greenleave - Only coming to this year when I start leaning about 11+ then I know its time to fight and focus on education more

Depending on the area you are in, you will likely find that the 11 plus maths is not particularly hard. Unless you are aiming for a super selective e.g. QE Barnet, the maths content will not go past what they learn in the year 6 NC. It sounds like your DC will be way past what is required long before the test, if not already past that level now. A lot of areas seem to be reducing the maths focus and placing more emphasis on English (CEM VR & creative writing).

@Mom: I dont know how hard maths will be for 11+ yet as we havent looked at anything except Bond book 10mins maths 8-9 last year. It was ok for her, she almost got everything correct. The incorrect one only because she didnt understand the questions.

We live in Richmond so its on Tiffins or private. My main aim is for her to a good school but learning maths in depth and not losing interest in learning it is the key. Maths to us is very meaningful and intuitive and so far she finds it the same, I am just hoping she is progressing rather than slowing down. Part of me knowing that I have been too lazy not helping her last year hence the guilt

Hopefully it isnt too late now and no harm has been done yet.

I even worse in writing and reading and we are just lucky that she is bright and did ok with her english last year(3b in English too). She loves Harry Porter so finishes all 7 books in few months and then read them again last summer. Her memory stretch out that she remembers all the spells. Her writing is ok(I only have her diary at home which is the only form of writing and it wasnt too bad-in my opinion.

Greenleave My DC sat the 11 plus this year.

I don't think Bond is the correct material to use for Tiffin. I think it is too easy. I could be wrong though as I'm in a different area.

Tiffin have a two stage test:

Stage 1 - English paper and a mathematics paper and both will be multiple-choice style tests

Stage 2 - The Stage Two Test will test the core subjects of English and mathematics

Is you DD as strong at English as she is for maths as it looks like a 50/50 weighting?

To be honest I dont know, she was never assessed, she used to be way ahead in terms of maths then due to the slow down policy last year her English caught up. We havent been doing anything extra except homework. I cant find time as we have little time during week days in the eve then weekend swimmings, birthday parties, sleep over etc. I am more focus on her music lessons lately as she is doing grades for both violin and piano

P/s: best of luck to your son results

I would suggest that you focus on the English as I don't think the maths will be a problem.

My DC was 4c in English at the begging of year 3. He was stronger at maths and still is. However, I'm fairly sure the girls applying to Tiffin would quite likely be a higher standard.

That said, I don't think the SATs levels matter too much if the child has the ability and can learn the exam techniques to ensure speed and accuracy.

I should add that my DC found the maths extremely easy. He rushed through practice papers and always got at least two or three wrong from making silly mistakes. He insisted on working it all out in his head so he had no reference to check back on. We had to insist that he write his workings out on the paper. This slowed him down and made him think more carefully about what he was doing. It also enabled him to check his answers carefully with the time left at the end.

Greenleave,

My DS is the same, he can see the maths questions and quickly works out the answer in his head. But ever since Y1 I made sure he explained to me how he got to that result so that we could compare it with the way I got to the same result (more often than not he does it in a different way that I wouldn't have thought of!).
The most difficult part was to make him write the procedures. He hated it. He asked why he had to do that if he already knew the answer.

Anyway, I persevered and he no longer resists doing it (not as much). He still doesn't like it but he knows that's how it is supposed to be done.
His homework from last week was to look at a menu for take away pizza with different prices depending on the size (small/large) and whether it had extra cheese or extra tomato. All the prices were in decimals (e.g. 3.75, 4.20, 0.55, etc)
He then had to work out the total cost for various orders with combinations of pizzas and extra ingredients.
Showing his work in this case was as simple as writing the name and size of the pizzas with prices next to them and the sums.
I don't know what kind of maths problems your DD is getting, but showing her work would be something similar.

I never cease to be amazed at how different schools can be. I was told the totally opposite at DS's parents evening. The teacher was aware DS does maths with me at home. She also said he was way ahead of where the typical Y2 child would be, and that she thought he would benefit from joining a maths club. But she never said things like I should slow him down, not do anything with him at home, or made me feel bad about it in the slightest. In my defence, the reason we do it is because I do maths and the equivalent to English (grammar, reading, writing) with him in the minority language, as a way to keep it up at the same level as his English.