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Gifted and talented

Talk to other parents about parenting a gifted child on this forum.

Original poster

maths in schools

158 replies

var123 · 25/10/2015 07:56

I know this isn't a G&T thing specifically, but its come about because I've started working through a maths GCSE textbook with DS1 and I really don't fancy having to explain and justify that decision as I would have to on other parts of mumsnet.

So, I started teaching DS1 yesterday. The first thing we did was go through and mark what he already knows. He has learned some sophisticated stuff at school. However, he didn't know how to do long multiplication! He can do the grid method, but not the method that generations of children have learned.

Ditto long division.

So, the first thing I have to do with my highly able 13 year old is to teach him the stuff that I learned halfway through primary school

OP posts:
JustRichmal · 30/10/2015 22:02

Could I ask any teachers, if a child is an outlier, how would you like the parents to approach this? What would you do to teach them? Could you see yourselves working with the parents to provide an education when time restraints and having to teach all the other children would make this difficult within the classroom?

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 22:10

All the advice is to not accelerate them through the curriculum, but to enrich the curriculum. So UKMT stuff, puzzles, books like those recommended above, but the student studying the same topics as their class.

With true outliers (and I have met one exceptional mathematician in ten years of teaching some very bright kids) then it can be very tricky. How best to deal with those children (educate out of year group?) I really don't know.

JustRichmal · 30/10/2015 22:41

What identified them as an exceptional mathematician and what did you do to teach her or him?

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 23:02

I'll pm you.

user789653241 · 30/10/2015 23:04

"Not accelerate through the curriculum, but to enrich the curriculum", sounds good, but how do the teachers do it?
At my DS's school, his teacher said the same thing...
My ds got L4 for teacher assessment last year, but now in YR3, with new curriculum, he is doing stuff far from that level. Even the extension questions seem ridiculously easy. Nothing enriching seems to be given to him.
He's too young (and not advanced enough) to do things like UKMT, I really don't know what to do.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 30/10/2015 23:06

primary is really tricky I think. nrich can help a little, but it isnt very structured.

Indole · 30/10/2015 23:22

I would also be very interested in the exceptional mathematician and how to challenge one, if another PM was in the offing, noble.

I have a daughter who loves maths. Not so much arithmetic, but she finds thinking about mathematical concepts really enjoyable and also head-bustingly weird. I think this is good - the idea of infinity had her lying upside down on the sofa laughing her head off and exclaiming 'the world is so weird!'. She is good at arithmetic and you know, levels, blah, but the thing I would love to encourage is her experience of maths as a kind of philosophy. That's what she likes about it - the weirdness and the mind-expanding strangeness. I would love to be able to give her more of that kind of thing to think about. I do have an A Level in Maths myself but I don't and never did experience it as a playground like she seems to.

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 23:26

It's easier in secondary when classes are setted, you usually have a few bright ones, and the teacher is a maths teacher (rare in primary to have teachers with a maths background).

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 23:32

Not sure how to challenge a primary student, Y3 is a bit young for the usual recommendations!

If she likes things like the concept of infinity, this book goes into it (and things like Fibonacci and Pascal's triangle which can be quite nice)

www.amazon.co.uk/The-Number-Devil-Mathematical-Adventure/dp/1847080537

It's aimed at older primary children though.

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 23:39

Once your DD is older I would certainly encourage an able mathematician to go the UKMT route. They issue monthly problems and mentoring materials for the challenges, which don't require advanced mathematical knowledge but are still difficult.

Acceleration past what is offered to the top set in terms of curriculum is problematic, I think. The student ends up isolated, or working out of their peer group which isn't ideal as maths is IMO, a collaborative subject. And the school eventually runs out of curriculum, which then causes its own difficulties.

Indole · 30/10/2015 23:39

She is in Y4 now. Her teacher has recently been setting her and another child problems from GCSE papers (which they both enjoyed and got right). I know they weren't the harder stuff - it was really just word-based arithmetic problems, but harder than your standard Y4 stuff. She is also an able reader (has recently finished The Hobbit which wasn't hard for her) so actually that book might be just the ticket. Age 10+ is probably about right for her.

Indole · 30/10/2015 23:39

And thanks!

OhYouBadBadKitten · 30/10/2015 23:41

for keen able primary readers the murderous maths series are the bees knees.

noblegiraffe · 30/10/2015 23:42

Sorry, getting two posters starting with an I muddled! Irvine's DC is in Y3!

As mentioned before, the nrich website is good for interesting problems
nrich.maths.org/frontpage

OhYouBadBadKitten · 30/10/2015 23:44

there is of course the primary maths challenge, but its a bit of a one off thing each year.

Indole · 30/10/2015 23:49

Oh thank you. I have no idea what UKMT is but will google immediately. Very kind. Thank you.

Her school runs a maths challenge weekly (like you say it doesn't require advanced knowledge but you do need to think). She wins it fairly regularly and has done ever since she was eligible to enter at the beginning of Y3, though this year she says she doesn't want to enter as she thinks it is too easy (I personally do not find it easy, though I am far from mathematically illiterate).

I would say she is close to running out of curriculum already, tbh. She worked out how to multiply decimals together herself last year. Fractions don't phase her at all. She mastered multiplying and dividing them without any apparent outside input - this was in Y2, just after they had told them what a half and a quarter were. The same day she came home saying 'well, a half of a half is a quarter. A half of a third is a sixth. A half of a quarter is an eighth.'

Shortly after this she worked out how to manipulate them satisfactorily. She is kind of running on herself without much outside input (but I do feel sad for her when she says the maths lessons are dull).

She can do basic algebra thanks to Dragonbox. Switching to doing it on paper with letters took her a few minutes to process.

Will look at Murderous Maths but is it scary? She is a very anxious child!

OhYouBadBadKitten · 31/10/2015 00:06

not in the slightest bit scary :)

user789653241 · 31/10/2015 06:14

Thank you noblegiraffe and OhYouBadBadKitten for suggestions!

JustRichmal · 31/10/2015 08:56

There is also the Primary Maths Challenge aimed at years 5 and 6. It is separate from the UKMT body.

user789653241 · 31/10/2015 12:25

Thank you justRichmal. The site looks great.

I really wish I paid more attention to maths when I was younger.
When my strength and ds's are completely different, I feel like I'm failing him. I already have difficulty explaining things to him, I really dread the future.
Until yr1, school was adamant that they only assess him up to LV3, but after Ofsted claiming not stretching able children, they decided to assess up to LV4.
Now level is gone, the school has lost interest in it again.
But without extensive maths knowledge, only thing I can do seems like provide him with resources.
I am really grateful that teachers and parents who gives us useful advice on MN. Without MN, I really can't do it!

Lucylongcat · 31/10/2015 17:45

Personally, I enjoyed sitting with a text book with the answers at the back and just getting on with it myself. Unfortunately, I wasn't allowed to do this after primary in the early eighties and its even less fashionable now. I'm pretty sure that historically that's how most mathematicians would have learned their trade and would have considered themselves extremely fortunate if they could get hold of the right books.

Greenleave · 04/11/2015 12:57

My daughter isnt gifted nor talented so I am not too sure if I am at the right place. She loves maths though, especially mental maths. Her school doesnt have G&T scheme and last year she was told to slow down. She is now in yr 3. She learnt tumes table in and out by end of year 1, learnt decimals almost herself and loves stuffs like vr or nvr if we asked her these type of questions

Greenleave · 04/11/2015 12:59

Sorry posted too fast,

She is acknowledged as a very able mathematician in all school report had an 3b in maths by y2 last year.

This year she was told that she isnt doing as well as she couldnt explain why she came up with the resilt. Everytime she was always the fastest and got it right and couldnt explain why she got it

Greenleave · 04/11/2015 13:01

She is losing her marks. I tried to ask her at home why you came up to the result and she tried to explain by doing it in different way but not really explained it. She is very fast with maths and so eager with complicated, hard maths(we both studied maths in univ)

Greenleave · 04/11/2015 13:02

My question is then how do I help her to explain her results and to gain the marks otherwise she might be moving to lower ability group just because of this( she is in the highest group of 3 classes)