"don't know" versus "Can't be bothered"

[ChasTittyBeltUp]

DD is 7 in year 3 of a new school and the teacher wants to get her assessed. She says DD's comprehension is behind her peers. DD is a free reader and has a reading age of 11 (or did last we heard at her old school)

She refuses to answer comprehension questions a lot...(mostly) but I KNOW that she understands the concepts...she's quite sophisticated in her use of language and has a very funny off beat sense of humour. She could speak at one and had full and lengthy conversations with me at 18 motnths.

Her teacher I think is at her wits end and this is why she wants DD assessed. I know I might be blinded by her being my lovely DD....but I just don't see that she has any difficulties processing information which is what the teacher thinks.

How CAN she when she is able to read a book and then discuss it with me afterwards...always asking pertinent and challenging questions?

(Of course the teacher the expert mind you and I am not saying she's anything other than that)

However...if something bores DD she is almost impossible to move....rather bloody minded... she struggles with maths but her spelling ability is excellent.

What's up with my DD then? Any ideas or suggestions as to what it could be? She is good socially...lots of invitations etc...forms some nice friendships...but she IS self contained.

Also...do you think that the teacher saying "I want to see if there is a problem with the way she processes things" is a good enough...and clear enough reason to assess?

Considering the advice some on here have given...that of asking what exactly the teacher suspects....when I DID ask this question the answer was very vague.

Is she going on a hunch? If so that's not good enough for me...not if I consider my DD may end up with a label slapped on her...when given time she will in my opinion come out of herself.

I think I lost confidence in the teacher early on...in week 2 of her time there, the teacher was warning me that she would take DD to see the HT if she kept saying "I don't kknow."

She's a nice woman...youngish but with a good rep....I don't want to look like a trouble maker but I don't want my DD labelled so early on without time to settle.

I'm thinking "trust your instincts" again. You could be right and it could be the shyness that is the problem. The teacher could have misinterpreted your daughter's reluctance to answer as meaning that she literally doesn't understand. As you say, she is youngish and you have already lost confidence in her. It doesn't mean that she is a bad teacher. I think you need to have a really good chat with them. You know that your daughter does understand. Perhaps they need to do some small group work to try and get your daughter to open up. This is where the EP might actually come up with some really good ideas. Maybe you could speak to the EP both before and after the assessment. Perhaps they could give your daughter the chance to point at the answers.

I wouldn't worry about the labeling issue as schools seem very reluctant to label kids, even when the parents are actually crying out for a label so that they can get some answers and get the help they really need if their kids do have SEN.

Right....so thats what gets me worried really...schools don't want to label kids...so why are they so swift to get DD assesed when her lasst school indicated no worries.

I don't think getting assessed is the same as getting labeled. It takes quite a lot to get a label. You definitely need more information from them. Not knowing is worse than knowing. Write down some questions and try and grab 5 mins tomorrow with the teacher or even phone up the HT during the day.

Do a google search on "gifted children shy" and I reckon you will hear lots of loud bells ringing!

I feel very upset and confused now. Just tried to get her to do her homework which seemed quite nice and creative...she had to think up her own creature and write it's characteristics and habits down.....she could come up with nothing...or wouldn't.

I am in tears. I did get upset in the end as when I asked her to do it she said "I can't think of anything...my brain won't turn on...and I have run out of imagination"

Maybe there is somethiing wrong with her? Everything she came up with was just taken literally from TV shows and cartoons.....lifted right out of them. There was nothing in there that was her own.

She sounds as though she might have a bit of a fear of getting stuff wrong, or sort of a stage fright type panic. I don't think a bit of writer's block is particularly concerning. . In those sorts of situations (ie the completely start from scratch ones) I just come up with four or five completely random words and get them to use those to start their thinking, and then they are well away. So given your topic, I might I have given her - blue, fussy, loud, sleeps and, oooo, a bit of a wild card one, something daft like trumpet.

Maybe try some of these anyway? We used to do it with ds1 at a similar age. He does 'rabbit caught in the headlights' vair well... (with him it's ADHD alongside a good helping of gifted -way too much going on in his head to verbalise - and a side order of social quirks). The paed thinks ADHD meds might make him more able to organize his thoughts and get hem out. Apparently a large proportion of bright kids with ADHD do suddenly find their voices on meds. Not suggesting she's add really. Just randomly coming up with ideas!

Don't worry. I think you are reading too much into everything. Just saying "I can't think of anything... my brain won't turn on... and I have run out of imagination" sounds pretty imaginative to me. Copying from tv shows is fine - like a new band playing Smoke on the Water before they mature and write their own stuff.

I wouldn't worry to much. It is easy to get so over anxious when you are worried about why your dc isn't behaving in the way you expect.

Whilst the assessment helped with ds I also found that I had to re-evaluate my attitude towards him. I used to compare him to his peers and get upset. It was easier once I accepted that he was an individual and would always be a bit different. Some teachers love him others can't stand him - he is one of those children people tend to notice and remember, which can be good and bad.

Thank you all so much. I am a terrible worrier and this thread has helped me SO much. DH is NOT a worrier and is secure in his knowledge of DD and says "It'll all come out in the wash" and simialar platitudes.

Coming here I have been able to rant and go into ridiculous detail....which is great if you're like me! You are all very kind and understanding.

I feel better now you say Assesment is a long way from a label Niceweather I think for my own sanity I am going to leave things as they are and wait to hear what the assesment says. I will keep communicating with the teacher via DDs book though as I have been able to share her home based successes.

I know what you mean about comparing her to peers...when they all come out of school and I see them chatting and being silly and so on...and DD comes along just smirking at something she won't share...I think "why is she so COMPLEX???"

I'm a bit "odd" myself so who am I to blinking judge??

Ds has never ever told me anything about school (in terms of what work he has done) since he started. His teachers don't believe me when I say I have no clue what he does. I have to ask other parents in the class to find out info!

In nursery he was considered determined at school they think he is stubborn. At nursery (head of nursery adored him and cried when he left) being determined was viewed as a good characteristic as it also meant stickability - ds never gives up. At school he is stubborn because he isn't compliant and questions everything. His school report at the end of year 2 said that he needed to realise when the head came into the classroom to speak to the deputy head (the class teacher) he wasn't coming in for a chat with ds!

Complex is a good word. I'd rather have a child like that than any other.

I also think I have been and am VERY judgy over her work in the past and feel AWFUL about it. I am a huge perfectionist and naturally very competative. I just went and had a word and told her "It's fine to get ideas from tv and things...you do what YOU want....I made a mistake when I told you not to copy"

And she looked very pleased and went to get her homework to add to it....that's all I want. For her to enjoy it.

I have to be careful with ds. I'm a real perfectionist (in the past I've had people refuse to work for me because of it) and I found that if I criticised ds's work he would rip it up. Hard to explain missing pages from exercise books!

can i recommend Carol Dweck's book Mindset to you - if, as you say you are perfectionist (and pos. DC too) then I think you would find this a really helpful read, especially if your DD (like mine) is scared of making errors so won't try sometimes at school.

Thank you Molly for sharing...it makes me feel so much better when I hear other people's experiences! adoptmama thank you very much for the book tip...am off to google!

Hello, I have only just discovered your thread, but it really sounds incredibly familiar!!!

Our DD1 was 6 when we moved areas, so she started at a new school. Old school had been no problem, DD loved it. New school - we hit huge problems with her behaviour almost immediately. The long and the short of it was that the school wanted to send her to be assessed for an Autistic Spectrum Disorder (Asperger's), but handled communicating regarding this incredibly badly. (The school nurse confidently announced my daughter "probably had Asperger's, and by the sound of it so does her dad" - she hadn't even met him!)

We said no to the assessment through school (as it would have had a supporting statement by the idiot of a nurse) and went privately to Great Ormond Street, which we were incredibly lucky to be able to do - total fluke! That way the school could not really question the report's authority. DD was found to be very intelligent (no surprise to us) -but also to have Auditory Processing Disorder (which I had never even heard of) plus difficulties with executive function (google it - I understood myself a heck of a lot better too after reading the description ).

These results explained the problems DD was having after moving schools - and no, she does not have a diagnosis of Asperger's! After the assessment we are in a much better position to understand DD's needs and ask the school to provide resources for her.

Here's what i would advice re: assessment.

1a) Trust your instincts! Above all else, be aware that you know your child in a way no-one else does.
1b) Try not to be too worried - and please come here for support if you are! :)
2) Find out everything you can about which assessment the school are proposing. Google like mad, make sure you understand every phrase and term.
3) Work with the school, try to make them feel ok about discussing the problems openly and accurately with you. Ask them for advice (even when you know the answer), do anything it takes to get school working with you (rather than being in two camps)
4) Make sure you get copies of all paperwork at every stage, and make sure you get to approve any referral letters that are sent anywhere.
5) Approach professionals with a degree of caution - we learned the hard way that there are shockingly bad and unprofessional people out there (the nurse) so don't assume anyone's competent and caring just because they're in a particular job! Although I hasten to add, most professionals, teachers, HTs etc are deeply caring, committed people who are simply trying to do their best for the children they work with. BUT - there are always exceptions.
6) Consider joining the NAGC (UK). They run a help line you can ring for advice. Lots of good info on their website too.

Will you please come back and let us know how you are getting on? Feel free to PM me if you want to/need to! :)

Thank you EyeofNewt I feel very stressed and keep chopping and changing about the assesment.

I will google the terms and beat everything in mind...I don't know what to do for the best. Should I ask for copies of the paper work that has already been done?

I have to say that her teacher was very cack handed...she actually said "Oh she'll be fine in a mainstream school I'm sure"

This is a child who displays no social problems and is very articulate, can read, write and spell well and has a great sense of humour.

Im getting more and more cross the more I think about it!

Eye of the Newt, your story is quite familiar to me too. We were told at the end of reception that at one point they thought had thought he was autistic but thankfully I dismissed this. A year later, they told me they thought he had Asperger's Syndrome at the school fete! How inappropriate. This ignited years and years of worry. Several years of worry later and with comments from a second EP who said that he was "displaying many of the characteristics of AS and that there was only one way to find out, one way or the other" we paid for the assessment with an AS expert and it was the best thing I ever ever did! He gave a great big list of reasons why he does not have it and was quite shocked that anyone would even suggest that he did have it.

So, Chastitty, I went through years and years of UNECESSARY worry - so, try not to worry.

As you yourself say: This is a child who displays no social problems and is very articulate, can read, write and spell well and has a great sense of humour.

Gosh, I remember feeling like that - stressed to the eyeballs! Don't worry, it will get better, I promise! But the 'not knowing' bit is hell. Niceweather is right - once the issue has been raised by school, it will probably stay on the paper work for years and years - unless you can prove them wrong! Trust your instincts.

Niceweather - I am about telling you about their suspicions at the school fete! I hope you sued them :) or at the very least changed schools!

Personally, I am glad we went through the assessment process, because we then got to understand where DD's difficulties lay and what was causing the problems - and we could prove to the school it wasn't Asperger's as they had assumed. But only you can make the decision for your family. (I also have a cousin whose son was flagged up as having possible AS traits at school - she refused assessment as she felt it wouldn't really change her son or give her any information she didn't already know about him - he is now a young adult in a great IT job, so it all turned out well.)

But if you do go ahead, you should arm yourself with as much information as possible, and try to keep in control of the process so that whatever 'evidence' gets presented to the assessing team is an accurate reflection of your child. If I were you I quite possibly wouldn't allow the cack-handed teacher to write a statement for the assessment referral - unless you agree with what she's saying of course.

To illustrate why - in our case the school kept saying "your DD struggles with transitions" but on further questioning this turned out to be ONE theme week during which DD had misbehaved (she found the subject boring). Although previous theme weeks had been fine, the school just interpreted the problems as being part of a typical Asperger's rigidity about routines, without considering all of the evidence. Because I knew my DD didn't have any preference for routines, I was able to challenge this perception and wouldn't allow it to go forward as "evidence" of an ASD.

Just go forward with your eyes wide open and you'll all be fine! :)

Yes Eye of Newt, we did move schools! But it was the EP at the second school that finally pushed us into paying for an assessment.

As you say, just because a child ticks some of the boxes on the list of traits, such as struggling with transitions, being socially awkward, having obsessions, or in the case of my son, talking too much and being a bit eccentric, does not equal or even come close to a clinical diagnosis of ASD. What is awful is that there are parents of children who do have ASD who are struggling to get their child's problems identified and therefore get the help they need. My friend's son does have ASD and a change of routine for him can be extremely traumatic.

Yes, it's so ironic, isn't it? In some schools you fight and fight and fight to get provision for a child who needs help, and in another school you fight just as hard not to get the wrong label!

A diagnosis of ASD requires a significant and consistent impairment in all four areas of social communication - not just a couple of traits, which a lot of people have.

Ignorance can be dangerous but so can just a little bit of knowledge..... it's so easy for a professional to say "I think this child ought to be assessed for x, y or z" without any realisation about the intense turmoil this will cause the family - especially if you feel that x,y or z is not what your child struggles with.

Glad your son is in a different school now though, Niceweather! Did it make it easier for him (despite the second EP?)

ds1 is 10 now and we have had 5 years and 4 schools of potential asd, adhd, odd, pda

he ticks lots of boxes. but just some of each.

the adhd meds seem to be helping him verbalise though. so we'll stick with that for now. and they are supposedly sorting out testing to see which grade he should join for math. the psych thinks just one subject area would be enough, as socially he might struggle if he was moved up across the board. one subject area would give him enough challenge without the down-sides.

I went through years of terrible worry over it all. He certainly ticked many boxes but there were many more that he absolutely did not tick, like lack of empathy, need for routines, anxiety with new situations etc etc etc. Every time he had an awkward social interaction I would be in turmoil. Now I can just smile as I know where his verbosity is coming from.

Second school was better but wasn't brilliant. He doesn't fit easily into a regular classroom but the problem has always been theirs rather than his as he is a cheerful chap who enjoys school (apart from a spate of bullying at 2nd school when he got called "the weird kid"). He's now in Year 7 at secondary school and it's much much much much much much better! They seemed to "get him" immediately in a way that no previous teacher has ever done - I still cannot quite believe it.

I've just come off the phone with the HT and I am in tears. She says she wants to get DD assessed because she seems to struggle with very literal things..when it comes to "inferring" or something?

She also says DD can be very stubborn and refused to get changed for PE the other day and that she stays on the periphary of the group...she is always with the other girls when they are skipping etc but that she is on the edge...I said well she was never like that in her old school....and I said I didn't want her assessed and the HT inferred that she COOULD if she wanted...not that she ever HAS>..but she COULD do it anyway?

We are going in to talk to her teacher and the SENcO today and I feel like I have made a mistake in moving her here. I am so sad.

Oh Chas, so sorry to hear this!! Keep your chin up - I'm sure I'm not the only one to also have had many similar days - it will get better once you get over this! How AWFUL they're threatening with forcing an assessment.

Would you please let us know how the meeting with the HT and SENCO went - PM me if you'd prefer?

I would highly recommend you get the book "misdiagnosis and dual diagnoses of gifted children" which was recommended above - let me see if I can find you a link here and see if what you think about what the school are saying. Problems with "literal things" and "inferring" sound an awful lot like ASD markers to me - but in my personal experience many many many things can produce "autism-like" symptoms in children - including stress. There's still lots you CAN do to persuade school that assessment is not necessarily required - don't worry. Perhaps you could show them some of your DD's work from home, or video her when she's happy and relaxed to show them that she is only stressed out in school. (I have taken DD's work in to the HT in the past to prove she does not 'struggle with abstract thought' as one of the staff members suggested!)

If they still suggest assessment my understanding is that theoretically they could force it (but I'm not 100% sure that's the case) - perhaps you need to phone someone in the LEA to find out?

Can you get the HT to phone your DD's previous school to find out how she was there? Or her previous teacher to write a letter of 'referral' describing your DD's areas of strengths and challenges?? Just throwing out ideas here.

Does your area have a "Parent Partnership" mediation service (ours is run by the local council) which advocates for parents in schools? Google or check your local council's website. They should also be able to advice you about your rights & the school's responsibilities.

Also, check the NAGC website here - they have descriptions of giftedness and fact sheets you can download to learn more - see if you think your DD fits the description.

My DD struggled after moving schools too, she went from being happy and loving school to really miserable and grumpy - I think children can get stressed out when they feel they have no control over something as big as moving house & school, and if they don't get off to a great start at the new school things can just spiral in an awful direction. Obviously the school need to help her, but they need to be accurate about what's causing the problems - the wrong sort of support could be worse than no help at all.

I do hope your meeting goes well today - you just need one (influential) professional to see things from your and your DD's point of view! Good luck.