Worried about my meeting with school

[mrsshears]

I have a meeting coming up with my 5yr old dd's school to discuss her recent IQ test results,i'm really not looking forward to it
School have been very defensive and basically have me down as a nightmare pushy mother,despite the fact dd1 went to the same school and i never went in to see the teachers in all her time there,in fact i bet some of the teachers wouldn'nt have even known who i was back then!
I'm really looking for any help or advice anyone has as to how i should handle this meeting,i know they have done some sats papers with dd over the last couple of weeks which whilst i'm glad they are doing something it kind of defeates the object imo as i'm sure they will have been full of things dd has'nt yet been taught (with the exception of the reading one) so i can't imagine she will have done too well,but then the cynic in me thinks that this is why they have done them.
What i want to say is that i just want dd to be challenged at her own level,not pushed but challenged,but i'm unsure as to how i can get this across without making myself look even worse?
On a positive note dd has been moved up a couple of book bands which has already boosted her confidence which i'm really pleased about.
Maybe i'm looking at this meeting far too pessimistically(sorry about my spelling) but after all we have been through i can't help it.
I would be really greatful for any advice any of you have.

Sorry it all seems to be going so pear shaped for you and DD just now.

I once sent a terrible report home about a boy who was doing nothing in class. Mum duly came in both upset and angry to tell me that he could do so much more at home and clearly I was wrong. However I was not wrong because I could only base my assessment on what he did in class which was nothing, tbh. Mum eventually appreciated what I was saying about how what he did in a classroom (complete with distractions of others, background noise etc.) was totally different from what he was doing at home with one on attention and support from mum - as well of it of course being a less stressful environment for him to perform in.

I'm not suggesting this is your DD's situation but clearly something is going on that is preventing her from working at her ability level. It may of course be more than one factor. Angry as you are, and as justified as that may be, I would really try to not approach this as if it must be all down to obstruction or failure on the part of the teacher. None of us go to our jobs looking to hurt or upset children or prove that parents are wrong :) My best advice to you would be to go to the meeting armed with your evidence of your child's ability level and potential and with an open mind to discuss with the teacher what factors there may be that are blocking her learning. For me with my DD I have written off this year as far as progress at school in maths in concerned as we are agreed the priority is helping her overcome her anxiety and perfectionism. Perhaps just now the most important factor in helping your daughter do well at school is not focussing on what maths she is doing but on what else may be affecting her confidence.

Good luck and I hope you find the school open to listening as well as talking!

Thanks adoptmama
I do understand why the teacher is saying what she is saying it just so frustrating and difficult knowing how to handle the whole thing and pitch the level of difficulty just right.
We have been working on dd's confidence alot recently and without a doubt she will be affected by thinking that the teacher thinks she isnt capable of something,when she was crying this morning she was saying "but why doesnt she say that to anyone else?"however she is also a stubbon little monkey so perhaps it will actually make her want to prove the teacher wrong.
The reason we are trying kumon is to try and build her confidence and get her used to having to try,one of the things i thought i might suggest in the meeting is dd having a seperate desk somewhere in the classroom,maybe in a quiet corner she could go to if she finds it all a bit too noisy/distracting?

mrsshears Yes I do see what you mean and I don't want to sound argumentative, but surely if she is having to actually think and work in perhaps a different way with her maths at the moment, does that not make you think that she hasn't got a natural "Maths Brain" and will always have to try harder? It can be a shock to the system to a child who actually has to "Think" re; learning after finding things usually so easy and natural.

...and probably why she should not be doing the higher level stuff just now. Sorry.

I see what you are saying iamnotminterested it still makes me question the gap between home and school though,i also think the fact dd wants to do this higher learning is a really positive thing.
She has always been a perfectionist so the fact she is stepping out of her comfort zone and trying something harder is great and i'm angry that they arent encouraging this,she almost cant win.

What sort of thing does she enjoy at home compared to school (are the school actually working at a very high level)?

mrsshears I bet there is not a parent on here who doesn't say the difference between home and school is , well, different! My DD2 does maths at home with me that would probably be high level 4/level5 stuff BUT I know that the home environs are different to school and what she does there. Frustrating? A little, but I encourage her loads, get her to check and re-check her answers at school and I hope that she is laying very firm foundations for later on, and I would never ever say that she could be doing better at school.

I think the school are working at a high level,i posted once over on primary and was told by numerous posters that dd must be very good at maths if she was doing what i had posted(this was what she was doing at school).
At home dd has lots of the letts books which she likes doing,she also likes working out when she is x age then that means another member of the family will be x age(bit of a habbit of hers at the minute).
She knows her 2,3,5,10 and some 7 x tables and understands the concept of them i.e 3x7 is three groups of seven and vice versa,she can quote these but not all in random order.
She uses mathematical languge freely and does division alot,not huge numbers but likes to work out how much of something she will get,like when i got a box of doughnuts last week,she was keen to point out as there were 12 she would need 3.
At school they do lots of missing number work like 15-=7 20 +=30 and one recent thing they did was segmenting 100's 10's and units which i was told dd was struggling with but she did it fine at home
If she see's any number 3 didgits or under she can tell you what it is made up of,but apparently not at school.
She got some sums sent home last week which she couldnt do at school but did them straight off at home too.

iamnotminterested i have never told dd she could be doing better at school.

Mrsshears, I think the problem lies with the teacher's attitude to be honest.

I assume your dd is coming in at Ruf's level 4? Tbh, I would give up on the school and look around for something better. Whan ds was younger, one of his teachers was very sceptical of his "alleged" abilities after one of the consultants wrote to the school with his test results. Ds was very angry with her and took in work from home that he had done independently.

It sounds as if this teacher is resistant to the idea that your dd is of high ability, and that combined with the misunderstanding of the IQ results, sounds to me as if she will not change.

I would advise that you give up on trying to get through to her and look for something more flexible in it's approach.

HTH, from a BTDT...

Mrsshears I wasn't saying you had, I am just conscious with my own DD how vital confidence building is with learning, and whilst I probably think she could be in a higher group I keep it to myself.

almost cries with relief to see evilclowns post

Okay, it is possible that she is having issues because of the methods they use in school, the noise, or just becoming too worked up so she does't dare get it wrong.
However long term I don't think it really matters, if she has a Maths brain it will all work out. I spent most of 4 years of Junior school complaining about my son being underestimated at school (and hitting the roof when they put him in the bottom Maths group....but at least he got a nice trip to town to practice with money from that). He is now on target for an A* (if he does a little revision), and to study two Maths at A'level.
Yes I admit I feel like shoving him exam results in his old schools face, especially the teacher who refused consistently to let him move up from the bottom group. But that would be childish!

Just a thought - could it be that your child is bright at maths and therefore finds easy maths confusing ?
I know this sounds a contradiction but I have noticed with some children that if say given the question 7-3 they will correctly say 4, but presented as "three apples were eaten from a basket and four were left - how many were in the basket to begin with ?" a bright at maths child may well come up with the answer "minus four" - wrong but only because their minds are capable of manipulating minus numbers long before a regular school would teach them.
Not sure if that example helps - just wanted to share the thought that in maths some children can make huge leaps of understand, and then find that easier work needs to be re-explained within the context of their more advanced knowledge.

I wouldn't suggest sitting her alone. That will just think she is naughty and the other children will also think that. She should sit with others at this age.

Mrsshears, as I have said before ds sounds very like your dd.

I have always thought, that as far as school goes, you will not change a teachers attitude. If the teacher says that your dd is bright, not gifted, then that is what she will be. Ime outstanding schools in nice middle class areas do have plenty of "bright" children, who have been enriched before they get to school. The teacher sees this, she thinks bright is gifted and vice versa. She is also subjected to lots of parents telling her that their child is super bright and attempting to interfere and micro manage their children's school life.. They are just not aware of children that fall outside that, in this case a child who is exceptionally/profoundly gifted.

These kids do not always work hard, achieve, comply and show what they can do. They are rude, they question everything, they talk nonsense and they manipulate the teacher and the situation to their own advantage. They muck about and tease the other children. They have odd interests and are not interested in pleasing the teacher. They could not care less. They are difficult, sometimes they are sensitive. They are unable to sit still, or stop from calling out the answer. They are domineering and arrogant.They are the class clown.. So the teacher marks them down as "average" or merely "bright". And a handful to boot. They are not the teacher's favourite child!

As we know very gifted kids are quirky, difficult, non compliant and in my ds's case, he almost talked a different language. We had an incident in reception when he was writing various maths terms and signs on his workbook and the teacher complained he was scribbling. She had never met a child like him, and, to her utmost relief, is unlikely to again.

I took ds out of the outstanding school and put him in one with a very diverse intake and high proportion of sen. They were far more flexible and prepared for him to work nearer his level, because they were used to looking at children holistically and as individuals.

I really would give it up as a bad loss and move on. The school will not change, and even if they did provide some kind of enrichment and extension, I suspect it would be with bad grace and would be picked up by your very perceptive dd. I would hate to see her love of learning spoilt by a teacher who did not enjoy her sense of wonder and quest for learning.

In lots of the research done I have seen the term "least worst option" and I have tried to find that.

Ds is currently in independent sector on full bursary. He is accelerated a few years and subject accelerated in strong subjects. He is working on maths at degree level according to the head who takes him one on one for maths. Interestingly, his teacher at the first school said he was ok at maths, nothing special, despite his very early interest in negative numbers, infinity and unusual number sequences like Fibonacci, how many rabbits breed from a pair in a given time and the perfect rectangle at age 5. Seems some teachers are really not familiar with gifted children at all.

Look around at the other schools, take your reports and also I would put together a portfolio of her best work if she is reluctant to "show what she can do"

Good luck and let us know what happens, feel free to pm me.

evilclown its fantastic for me to read your post,its great to see someone else completely 'get' where you are coming from.
Dd's school certainly meets your description,lots of parents are as you describe and i know they have me in that category,the mum with the extremely introvert dd who is pushed to way beyond her capabilities.
I said to DH earlier that dd is not like the group of 'easy' bright extroverts in her class and as you say dd also has no interest at all in pleasing the teacher or in showing off her abilities,its as much as she can do to reply to some of the more unfamiliar ones.
I know you are right about dd's school,they are just unwilling to see her as a highly intelligent individual and dd knows this,she has been in the heads office today being quized about wether she has chosen to do the higher level learning or if i have forced her,erm how intimidating?,i dread to think what dd has said,she says she has told him she herself wanted to do the higher level but she could also have told him what he wanted to hear.
I know she needs to move i just need to convince dh too but as i said earlier after this meeting i dont think he will need persuading.
I'm really glad things are good for you,it gives me hope too

If you do the research, I think you'll find that IQ scores are not reliable (especially in small children) and that they can vary over time. It is not an exact science.

Fraidylady, I have done more research into Iq scores, giftedness and learning styles than I would ever have wanted. I have had meetings with specialists and I think I can safely say that there isn't much about the whole area that I don't know tbh.

From the descriptions given over time by mrsshears, I would agree that the score fits the description of the child. She was seen by one of the most experienced psychologists in the uk that deals with gifted children. The issue is not is she gifted or not, it is what to do about her education as it is impacting on other areas of her life in a negative way.

Thanks evilclown

If you have done the research, how can you be so convinced that IQ testing at such a young age is so reliable? All of the information I have found say it's not.

I said that in my opinion it was reliable in this case, in that the score fit the profile that mrsshears has described over time. Dr congdon has seen and assessed many hundreds of children like mrsshear's and agreed it fit the child he saw.

I am aware that some research does suggest inflated scores on some tests in very young children. Other children can test low at a young age and higher later.

However taken with other information it is a very useful tool and in this case seems to confirm what mrsshears thought in the first place.

how are you mrs s?

disappointing after getting your hopes up about the teacher doing research.

Hi susan i'm very stressed and quite down about the whole thing,i will be glad when i have had the meeting and can start to look for another school move forward.

going to reread the last bit of the thread later. I have been trying to keep up but it has been a bit busy and I have been too sleep deprived to compose an understandable sentence. (can't do them very well at the best of times. )