colleague smoking while 8 months pregnant - aaaah!

[Lil]

Am sure I'll be trashed by the 'live and let live' brigade, but I am so-o-o angry with a colleague of mine who is merrily puffing away on her ciggies whilst very preggers. I just bumped into her outside the office in the smokers den and I was this close to having a real go at her. Wish I had, it would have calmed me down..am sitting here very pissed off and irate!!!!

Has anyone here ever let rip?

Ok - am jumping in with both feet and picking up the heroin and cocaine post... (then running off and selling them to school children)...

Firstly, smoking - whilst potentially fatal and undeniably stupid - is legal.

Secondly, I could be totally wrong here, but I don't know of any paediatric wards filled with tiny babies addicted to Marlborough lights... but there are specialist units for babies born addicted to heroin and cocaine.

Lastly, no unborn baby ever became infected with HIV because its mother smoked cigarettes.

BTW would like to clarify that I am not advocating smoking during pregnancy - but do feel that there are greater risks relating to drug use. For more information go to here

Ok back from midwife and find it interesting how this thread has progressed,

Firstly I do think M2T is getting a hard time.. Lets deal with one thread at a time please.

Secondly some good points Northener as no-one has the right to lecture someone else simply because they do not agree with the other persons' methods.

Thirdly the reference to pg mothers who use cocaine, heroin etc is quite simply ridiculous and has no basis for reasonable comparison on this thread. We are talking (I presumed) about ordinary decent law abiding mothers whom sometimes gorge themselves on disgusting vile cigarettes, and feel GUILTY enough about doing so without others adding to it.

Finally contrary to my overall stance as a smoker I agree with Soupdragon's last comment, it is a disgusting habit, it is vile but I sure as hell would never dream of telling someone else how to live their life...............Glasshouses ladies.

This has nothing to do with smoking but....I never read the posters names when I participate ina debate, or better, I take no notice, This has the drawback that I ahven't been able to identify anyone that might be a closer friend as many of yous eem to have done by now, nor do I really feel as part of the community.
Nor do I seem to be noticed a lot but I don't really care: I'm here for the debates and the information I get from mumsnetters, don't really care who says what.

Whatever image I might try to attach to any of you, it will never be a faithful one, as I can only see the internet side of you, so I'd rather not have one at all.

On the positive side, I don't hold any grudges as I don't remember any of your postings/opinions, so I can't be offended and each time is like starting afresh.

Can't really say I do it on purpose as it's my mother's brain that can only hold so much info at any one time, and I HAVE to be very selective.

To go back to the smoking thread someone said of mothers who find it too hard to give up smoking, that it is very selfish of them to put their own happiness before that of teh child's. Have you thought that for these people to quit smoking might be so hard as to make them depressed or worse, so that in the end, it might be better for the child's sake that teh motehr stays sane and smokes? I know it's a farfetched example, but it could be couldn't it?????

I don't smoke and don't like people who smoke when pg, but its just SO EASy to judge people from the outside.........

This has nothing to do with smoking but....I never read the posters names when I participate ina debate, or better, I take no notice, This has the drawback that I ahven't been able to identify anyone that might be a closer friend as many of yous eem to have done by now, nor do I really feel as part of the community.
Nor do I seem to be noticed a lot but I don't really care: I'm here for the debates and the information I get from mumsnetters, don't really care who says what.

Whatever image I might try to attach to any of you, it will never be a faithful one, as I can only see the internet side of you, so I'd rather not have one at all.

On the positive side, I don't hold any grudges as I don't remember any of your postings/opinions, so I can't be offended and each time is like starting afresh.

Can't really say I do it on purpose as it's my mother's brain that can only hold so much info at any one time, and I HAVE to be very selective.

To go back to the smoking thread someone said of mothers who find it too hard to give up smoking, that it is very selfish of them to put their own happiness before that of teh child's. Have you thought that for these people to quit smoking might be so hard as to make them depressed or worse, so that in the end, it might be better for the child's sake that teh motehr stays sane and smokes? I know it's a farfetched example, but it could be couldn't it?????

I don't smoke and don't like people who smoke when pg, but its just SO EASy to judge people from the outside.........

Webmum you're right about ignoring individual names on this site. I do regret getting invokved in the mudslinging but I am glad I never said anything to my smoking colleague

He he - Willow - you are obviously not a smoker - Marlorough??? Not attacking you - just made me chuckle.

There are lots of things we could say to other people about the way they live their lives but unless we are completely perfect we should not criticise.

(Although if I saw you driving with a child not in a childseat I would knock on your window and have a pop at you!!)

Think it is just really easy to judge and hard to look at ourselves at realise our mistakes.

jUST GOING FOR A FAG, BACK IN 5 MINUTES .......

Boe do you mean we are not allowed to criticise or judge people unless we are completely perfect ourselves?

Not sure about that one. We'd have to ban juries and let all the prisoners out of jail today!

Boe said we should not criticse, not that we shouldn't judge. Jury decisions are about making decisions about legal (or illegal I guess!) matters based on evidence given to them, not criticising someone's general way of life.

Hmm, ok I can't be bothered to read all 68 messages on this but it looks as if all hell has broken loose so I am going to have to chuck my 2 cents in too: I am an ex-smoker and struggled to give up, did not smoke during pregnancy and would not waltz up to a pregnant smoking stranger to tell them they are mad but may feel obliged to tell a close friend who smokes that it is perhaps not the best idea.

Willow - picking up on your response to my drug use question / point. I agree that the scale is perhaps a little different but....

"Firstly, smoking - whilst potentially fatal and undeniably stupid - is legal." - I am not debating its legality but just because it is legal doesn't mean that cigarette chemicals are not a real, proven and serious danger to health.

"Secondly, I could be totally wrong here, but I don't know of any paediatric wards filled with tiny babies addicted to Marlborough lights... but there are specialist units for babies born addicted to heroin and cocaine." - That is as may be but there are MANY babies in SCBU and NNU that are born prematurely and with breathing difficulties as a direct result of smoking. Just because there isn't a 'smokers corner ward' does not mean that it doesn't happen !

"Lastly, no unborn baby ever became infected with HIV because its mother smoked cigarettes. " - True enough but there are thousands of babies born every year with breathing problems due to maternal smoking. Many of these breathing problems are life-long conditions. Also heroin and cocaine users do not always use needles and so are not all carriers of HIV / AIDS, and not every baby born to a HIV positive mother is infected.

Personally I consider it just as irresponsible to smoke during pregnancy as it is to take Class A drugs. My opinion which I am entitled to hold.

M2T, I am genuinely interested in why Lil feels insulted and why you don't feel that you have been insulting. As someone who is forever insulting people when I don't mean to (by giving my opinion forcefully), I have found that linguistic culture often creates great divides between people. At risk of being attacked myself, I thought I'd go back and analyze one of your posts in the beginning of this thread and point out some examples of what I am assuming Lil has found insulting.
You say "It's very selfish to judge this way." It is not unreasonable for Lil to feel that you are calling her selfish in this statement. Perhaps instead you could have said, "I don't judge people because I like to try to look at their good points instead" I know that sounds a bit wimpy, but it is a way to convey your opinion without putting down someone else's.
Later on in the same post you say "...you have NO IDEA what is going on in that persons head." How do you know that Lil has no idea? Perhaps you could have instead suggested some reasons why the woman was smoking and left it at that.
sorry gotta go ds is crying for the toilet and he's wearing dungarees!.

M2T, I am genuinely interested in why Lil feels insulted and why you don't feel that you have been insulting. As someone who is forever insulting people when I don't mean to (by giving my opinion forcefully), I have found that linguistic culture often creates great divides between people. At risk of being attacked myself, I thought I'd go back and analyze one of your posts in the beginning of this thread and point out some examples of what I am assuming Lil has found insulting.
You say "It's very selfish to judge this way." It is not unreasonable for Lil to feel that you are calling her selfish in this statement. Perhaps instead you could have said, "I don't judge people because I like to try to look at their good points instead" I know that sounds a bit wimpy, but it is a way to convey your opinion without putting down someone else's.
Later on in the same post you say "...you have NO IDEA what is going on in that persons head." How do you know that Lil has no idea? Perhaps you could have instead suggested some reasons why the woman was smoking and left it at that.
sorry gotta go ds is crying for the toilet and he's wearing dungarees!.

Haven't finished reading this thread, but I am bursting to share my profound views

I have to say I agree with Lil and I thought Prufrock's comments have been particularly well written.

So, well, you know where I stand. Smoking in pregnancy is sooo selfish. I know it's tough to give up, but surely you should be able to make that sacrifice for your child? After all, if you're not prepared to look after your childs' best interests then who will?

Each time you put a cigarette to your lips you are making a choice - a choice to poison your child. Everyone keeps talking about the choice of the mother, but what about the child who isn't being given a choice? Who would choose to expose their own child to those risks?

i know someone who found it really, really difficult to give up smoking but tried to even when trying to conceive and managed to cut down quite a bit. When pregnant, most days she would light a ciggy, take a puff and put it out - maybe 3 or 4 times a day when the craving got really bad. She figured that her stress (remember it is hard to give up) and her body's craving for nicotine could be harmful to the baby too and such a small amount of smoking was OK under the circumstances.

She also made sure she didn't do this in public as knew she would be crucified. I think she tried her damndest and should be applauded. She's a fabulously loving mother - and we are all human.

I smoked, and drank, and took drugs,before i got pregnant, its hard to stop anything when you first find out your a mum! You need weaning off your selfishness, its a battle between being you , or you being a mother and it takes time.

I think that Forestfly has hit the nail on the head.
I am on the fence on this one ... I have strong feelings about MY smoking while I am pg and people around me smoking BUT I do think it is no -one's business but the mother's on what she does.
It IS bloody hard to give up smoking ... I gave up when I was 5 weeks pg with DS ... from 20 a day to 0 ... and it was very very hard. But I always told myself that I would never smoke while pregnant ... But it is soooooo easy to start again ... I started again when DS was 5 months old (never near him or in the house). I tried to give up in my second pregnancy and couldn't ... I lost that pregnancy. I gave up well before I conceived this time and I am now nearly 11 weeks. I will never know whether smoking caused my m/c ...
If smoking caused m/cs my SIL would not have any children .... she smoked in her pregnancies and although it was hard to see I never ever felt it was my business to tell her what to do ... who was I to tell her? She isn't stupid ... she knew the risks ... but there were so many more factors involved and someone in the street who saw her and disapproved would never have known what else was going on in her life. She wanted to give up but with her first ... but she was in a violent relationship and had so many other things to worry about that smoking was the least of her worries (for example when 5 months pg her partner threw her down a flight of stairs)
With her second she was no longer in a violent relationship but her partner was very very unfaithful ... again smoking was the least of her worries.
With her third she was happy and secure and she cut down big time but never managed to kick it completely.
In fact she went to the doctor for help and he told her that the stress of giving up considering the circumstances would be more harmful to the baby than the smoking was.
I am one that feels it is no-ones business but the woman's ... all women know the risks .... it is up to them to deal with it and do what they can ... it is NOT a reflection on whether they are caring mothers or not ...
Are we uncaring mothers if we continue to eat soft cheese or pate while pregnant even though we know the risks involved?
Yes we know that smoking can harm an unborn baby ... but how many of us can say that our mother's smoked and we are OK? My mother did and I have no health problems ... no asthma ... etc ...
I just know what I did ... because I knew the risks and it was my decision to stop ... but don't condemn others if you don't know the other factors in their lives ....

OH ... and ... Please can you all stop this ridiculous bitchiness that always goes on when a touchy subject is brought up??? There is nothing wrong with a good debate but this mudslinging is just stupid and childish and pathetic and not even worthy of the school playground .... I hate it and I am sure lots of other mumsnetters do too ...
and it is seriously putting me off ....

Ghosty- if we continue to eat soft cheese and pate we're not unfit mothers we're just French!

Actually I think some of this is cultural. For example many Americans wouldn't touch a drop of alcohol when pregnant. I remember I had an American friend visiting when I was about 5 months with ds2. I dranks one small glasss of wine with my evening meal (special occasion) and she almost passed out. I think in France doctors sometimes advice one glass of wine a day when pregnant "to reduce the blood pressure" I guess the UK falls somewhere in between.

Isn't it all about moderation? And anyway there are no guarantees. I was ridiculously puritanical when pregnant with ds1. With ds2 I was careful, but less so (even ate a goats cheese pizza- wouldn't have breathed it with ds1). And who's the one with problems? Ds1, not ds2.

Isn't it great to know there are so many mums out there who - hand on heart can judge and class a smoker as a bad mother?

Why do we feel we have to judge? I didnt smoke when pregnant but some of my friends did, as a way of relaxing, and their midwives (oh yes) said if it is relaxing them then it is fine. They did cut down from 20 a day, to a couple. It wouldn't have been my choice to smoke at all, but it was theirs. BUT I put my children in nursery all day, and some people think that is the worst possible thing, and that I am a bad mother.

So why are we judging? Being a mother is difficult enough without all the old witches out there gathering around the pot.

This thread is so depressing, I just dont think any of us can judge, I know I can't.

Thanks Sofiames That's what I was asking for all along, but seems that it was again misconstrude as me being b*tchy. I genuinely don't know why I offended Lil, but when you put it like that fair enough. Sorry Lil.

However, I do feel that the reaction it provoked was quite uncalled for.

I think the reaction provoked was for the smoking versus non, not to you per se M2M

Also, dh was puffing on his cigs in the garden last night and for the first time, actually fancied one (a ciggy that is). Can I blame everyone on this thread if I do??

I was a smoker for a number of years and was lucky enough tio find myself in a place and space where I was able to give up successfully about 2 years before having my first child. It wasn?t easy, sure, but luckily for me the motivation of knowing I wanted to give up well before starting a family was enough to get me through (despite my then DP still very heavy smoker). Before all of you who are smokers allow your hackles to rise and judge me as a do gooder with a "holier than thou" atttidute - please try to read on and you will see that it just isn?t that straight forward (wish it was!!).

I can honestly say that I am not smug and do not need to remind myself that not eveyone is so lucky to be in the right frame/space in their life to be able to do it and that everyone has different tolerance levels - I know this is true as my DH really struggled to give up (managed it but not easy and in a timescale that he needed). I am sure that plenty of people with more determination and strength than me have failed due to some kind of medical addiction levels or other personal reasons.

However, while I try to be understanding and tolerant I cannot bring myself to be totally relaxed and "ok" when I see a pregnant woman smoking and this is my own "moral dilemma" as I hate how I feel. I hate feeling so judgmental and prejudiced (in the sense that I know nothing of her personal circumstances) and yet I have to put my hands up and admit that I find myself becoming irritated/sad/frustrated/angry that there is nothing I can do that would be reasonable/fair to stop her etc. etc. and that she isn?t managing it for herself. I have never confronted anyone about smoking even though it makes me feel sick and concerns me for obvious health reasons (for them/me/anyone else involved). It even annoys me that I don?t say anything - am I being a wimp by choosing not to get involved? Is saying l"ive and let live" really just an excuse not to upset and embarrass me and them? or am I being "genuinely" genuine and tolerant? Maybe I am too busy concerning myself with what is "politically and socially correct".

TBH smoking just winds me up and the morals behind it combined with the complexity of reasons starting/giving up makes me hold back from wishing I could implement a world wide law that all smokers should be given 2 years to give up before it is outlawed (with as much money thrown at medical help as needed)...
As a smoker it never dawned on me that non smokers/ex smokers might just be sitting round feeling too embarrassed or have such mixed emotions to do what deep down they really want to do - walk over and stub it out. I just presumed that if they had a problem, either they would sit somewhere else or have enough nerve to ask me if I could stop....

Sorry - another rambly post but just felt the need to explain how I feel - so many of the posts here are black and white and end up upsetting others (mentioning no names - don?t need too!!) and just wanted to share how I feel as I am sure that loads of people keen not to offend yet full of strong feeling are as equally frustrated as me by this one.

M2T - don?t think your comments were bitchy, just very defensive and strongly worded. Obviously a big deal to you which is ok - just as long as you accept that for others who feel differently to you, it can be a big deal to them too

Hey you could always try this