Why do we not vaccinate against chicken pox?

[PolkaDotRachel]

My SIL has just mentioned that her DD is having some more jabs this week - and one of them is chicken pox.

Why do we not vaccinate against chicken pox in the UK?

Can it be done privately?

Any thoughts?

Apparently pre vaccine there were 5-10 deaths and 1500 hospitalisations due to chicken pox per year in Australia. Staitistically, I guess that would be about tripple figures in the UK.

I know its not generally life threatening, but it can be.

My DD was vacinated in Aus, DS caught it in the UK and was SO ill (and my DD didn't catch it from him, so her vaccination obviosuly worked), and my DH got it too and was terribly, terribly sick for 3 weeks. I will be vaccinating our DC 3 when the time comes.

I do agree they need to do something in Aus about vaccinating adults who are not immune though - it really is a dreadful illness to have as an adult (and can be for little ones too)

Measles virus is well known to suppress the immune system be it in its wild or vaccine strain form.

I'm just posting to say that the idea that small children can receive an infinite number of vaccines because it is impossible to overload their immune systems (or any other body system) is patently ridiculous and obviously from the fantasy land of the likes of Drs Offit, Salisbury and Messers Merck, GSK, et al.

Vaccines are drugs which contain antigens and additives (and often contaminents). All drugs have an overdose level, the level depends on many factors including individual susceptibility, route of entry, dosage, etc.

quick google revealed that they seem to be vaccinating non-immune 12 and 13 year olds (in Australia) as well as babies.

I don't know why people are saying CP only lasts ten years; everything I've read from credible sources suggests ~85% life long immunity from 2 doses. Anyway, if you did get cp after getting vaccinated odds are that it would be quite mild, not the usual bad dose that completey unexposed adults can get. I had extremely mild CP as an adult.

DC all had wild cp which I am fine about (they were ok with it). But I wish that there were a regular vaccine, given the attitude that you are supposed to quarantine the contagious fully; I found quarantine extremely stressful and difficult to achieve.

An elderly relative recently had shingles for 2 months, he has not been told to avoid people at all (or he is too thick to hear the message, quite possible), so is blithely passing varicella around to all the world.

Just a quick word before I have to go out about this overloading business.

Using the example of a live virus vaccine, say measles.

If it is just hunky dory no bother for the immune system to have this live virus injected into it then why does the virus need to be attenuated? Simply put because it would make you very ill indeed or possible kill you to do otherwise. So the vaccine has to be altered to make it less virulent. Problem with this though is that the altered virus does not stimulate the immune system in the way vaccine designers need it to in order for the body to stimulate antibody production. So, so that this altered virus will do its job when introduced into the body via injection (which remember by passes the usual route of entry thereby also compromising the natural effective immune response the body would normally mount) something has to be added to the mix.

Here, in steps adjuvants such as aluminium salts which are known to stimulate the immune system and provoke an immune response. Aluminium salts are not innocous for the human body particularly when small children are exposed to them.

Some people cope better than others with this highly artificial chemical stimulation of the immune system just as some people cope better than others with the challenge of natural disease.

It is perfectly possible that the individual's system would not be overloaded simply by the introduction of an attenuated antigen in the absence of any other components by a natural route of infection (like the mucus membranes). This however is absolutely not what vaccination does to the body.

in Sweden, where they do now vaccinate, the argument seems to be a small risk to pregnant women

dd was delirious when she had chickenpox, so not exactly mild; about as ill as lots of children were with measles, I suppose

her immune system was knocked for a long time after having it- she was even tested for cyclical neutropenia, and the immunology consultant we saw said that is very common, and they see a lot of serious illnesses, such as pneumonia in children who have recently had chicken pox

still not sure about the vaccine though

There are lots of studies examining the immune suppressive effects of vaccines.

This is not a subject for debate in medical science it is a known and studied fact. This immune suppression is considered a justifiable trade off in exchange for the protection which vaccines are designed to offer.

For example we know that the immune suppression provoked by measles vaccination is not the same in male and female subjects.

This easy to read article refers to some of the studies done on vaccine induced immune suppression.

I had chicken pox as an adult and it was awful. I was off work for nearly 5 weeks.

I would not deliberately expose my children to chicken pox as I know it can have complications. Thye have both had it - badly but in the normal range.

Had they not had it by teenage years I would go for a vaccination.

I think when they started vacinating in usa, the protection only lasted 5 years hence people now have 2 jabs, i may be wrong but i think they are still collecting data to see how good long term immunity is.

I don't know about 5 years, this 1995 FDA link is emphatic about no waning in immunity over first 5 years.

US Gov CDC mentions Japanese experience (updated to 2007, scroll down the page), suggesting that the recommended double-dose seems to confer at least 25 years of immunity if immunity is conferred at all.

my two (now 7 and 5) have never had chicken pox despite the fact that children in their nursery and school classes have had it and a doctor friend said that they might have developed an immunity without actually having had chicken pox themselves. Don't know if this is possible.

I wouldn't rely on that, moffat.I had a few exposures to children with chickenpox when I was a child, never succumbing,so I thought I could well be immune. How wrong was I!

Interestingly,my brother and mother have never had it and my brother's 2 Dc had it and yet he still didn't get it .I reckon the only way to be sure would be to have their immunity properly tested. As many people are confirming, getting cp in adulthood is grim.

Hi There!

I just feel that there are some comments on here that are applicable to people's individual cases! - To vaccinate solely for vanity reasons is not necc the way forward. However, "Science gone mad" is also not the case.

If you have had chicken pox as a child with no complications and your children also have then fair enough, however, as a child I never had chicken pox. I came into contact with the virus whilst pregnant and I had to have a blood test which proved I had no immunity - I had to have an injection to prevent damage to the fetus or even miscarriage. My son has chicken pox at the moment (which I am glad about) however, has had a very bad attack, approx 700+ spots on his eye lids, in his mouth, all over his body generally particularly on the soles of his feet and in the genital area which has become severely infected! - He is on antibiotic cream and being watched closely by his Dr as he is asthmatic and is needing his inhalers twice as much.

The Dr today asked if I were planning anymore children, (which I am) ....I have therefore been offered the vaccination. I have done my research and feel it is the best option. A freind of mine lost her baby by contracting the virus at 14 weeks and if there is a prevention for this then I am grateful for science!

If children I go on the have in the future (touch wood) don't suffer chicken pox at a young age (before 12-15) Then I would also consider getting them vaccinated. Of course I would prefer for them to be immunised naturally however, whilst as a child it is pretty mild if not just hugely annoying, as an adult it can really be quite serious with a large percentage of adults who suffer it even hospitalised!

I have researched and researched this topic tonight and I am going to take the offer of the vaccination with both hands and have one less thing to worry about during my next pregnancy! :-))

......It also can be done privately and costs anywhere between £50-£70-00! - Good Luck! :-))....www.ramsayhealthcare.co.uk

Hi - Just some thoughts...and questions...
We're in the US now and I think the vaccine is offered (and sometimes said to be 'required' though I think it can be fought) just because the government is vaccine (and $-from vaccine companies) happy.
Also, someone mentioned boosters for the vaccine elsewhere, almost suggesting that the US wouldn't need them too, but we will. Not sure when they 'expire' but I heard 25 years of age. Again, not sure what's true, and info is difficult to come by on vaccines and timing and expring, etc., but if it does expire at 25 and someone does get the chickenpox at an older age, it is more dangerous. I know someone who died because their body was compromised by chickenpox at an older age and then a simple tooth infection took their life. So I think getting chickenpox naturally is better.
Also, I think you can still get shingles even if you get the cp vaccine; I believe it's that you need to have the cp protein (if that's the right word) in you in order to contract shingles in the first place, and the vaccine would give you that. People who have never had shingles, I believe, can't get it?
Just some thoughts. BTW, different US States have different vaccine policies. So states like New York are much more strict and require many more vaccines than some of the other states. Some states offer exclusions for religious or different belief systems, etc.. So the USA isn't blanketed with one policy.
That being said, the pharmaceutical companies are powerful here, and it is thought the government supports them without asking enough questions that would benefit the people.
Too many vaccines here. I think more doses of the same vaccines are required here. For instance, four doses of DTP are required; is that the same in the UK? Two MMR's?
Cheers.

Correction above: Meant to read "People who have never had chickenpox, I believe, can not get shingles."

Chickenpox can be a vile illness. It can cause disastrous problems in pregnancy. If you think it is "science gone mad" to advocate vaccination, then perhaps you should emigrate to Fairyland.

Great contribution to the thread OGC

WRT the US, and the idea that the government there is vaccine happy and chicken pox specifically:

It affects adults more adversely than children, and some states that have large unvaccinated adult populations, consisting of groups of immigrants, asylum seekers, etc., who tend to live in pockets where they dominate a given neighbourhood (where a contagious disease can therefore spread easily) find it is very advisable to reduce wild chicken pox as much as possible. While the effects of chicken pox on a native born American child might be minimal, the effect of an unvaccinated community such as St. Paul-Minneapolis' large Somali community could be devastating. Chicken pox in adults tends to hit males and pregnant women the hardest, with consequences for families that can be horrible (loss of mother, loss of breadwinner).

Part of the aim of mass immunisation is to reduce the overall risk of exposure in others who are unvaccinated for whatever reason. It is not just to protect one individual child from a disease. Hence rubella vaccination for boys.

The varicella vaccine is mandatory for school entrance in most states in the US. The only way you can get it free is if you have medicaid or private insurance that pays 100% for well child care. There are programmes in some states that write off the cost if private insurance does not cover well child care (routine visits and jabs). Otherwise you pay at least a percentage.

Well in that case math why not just vaccinate the vulnerable community - the adults that may be at risk? Although I'm not sure why you think those adult populations wouldn't be immune simply because they come from another country. I would have thought that would have made them more likely to be immune. In countries where cp is endemic the majority of people catch it in childhood.

It also doesn't account for the general 'fear' about cp in the US. You just have to look at US parenting forums to see the difference.

I agree with Bubbly and Beach.

I didn't realise this was such an old thread. I also have concerns about altering the immune system and fear that the increases in auto-immune disease and atopy are connected to the intensification of the vaccine schedule.

I personally know three children with severe (in one case with permanent disability) chicken pox complications, one (about 18 months old at the time) was hospitalised with seizures for a week, one (about 2.5 years at the time) nearly lost her leg due to chicken pox induced osteomyelitis and spent 4 weeks on IV antibiotics in hospital, and a further two weeks on oral antibiotics at home, the other one (4 years at the time) had a chicken pox induced stroke. In fact, up to 30% of pediatric strokes (which are rare, about 1 child in 12000) are thought to be cause by chicken pox and indeed, chicken pox vaccination seems to lower the risk of stroke in kids by about 60% (0.8/10000 in unvaccinated; 0.3/10000 in vaccinated). Catastrophic complications are like that are rare, most kids are just plain miserable for a week and retain maybe a couple of scars, but why not prevent even that, and maybe even worse?

I also have concerns about altering the immune system and fear that the increases in auto-immune disease and atopy are connected to the intensification of the vaccine schedule.

But we know that those things are more related to increased hygiene rather than more vaccines.