Why do we not vaccinate against chicken pox?

[PolkaDotRachel]

My SIL has just mentioned that her DD is having some more jabs this week - and one of them is chicken pox.

Why do we not vaccinate against chicken pox in the UK?

Can it be done privately?

Any thoughts?

I had heard that the shingles rate had gone up in the US when routine vaccination was introduced, but I have no reliable source for that information.

i have shingles now!!! am in uk!!

I think it's a combiation of things. For the majority of the population, chicken pox is a non-threatening childhood illness that leaves you with a few scars and nothing else.

On that basis, it simply isn't cost-effective to roll out a nationwide immunisation programme for the benefit of the small proportion of immuno-comporomised people that would be seriously affected.

A teenage vaccinatio would be on the whole redundant as most children have had it by then, so I guess they keep it as a private option so that the money can be spent elsewhere.

I'm not a medical professional, so obviously take what I say with a pinch of salt, and DP seems to recall reading somewhere that they want to combine an immunisation with the MMR (which I would argue against solely because I can forsee a whole lot of MMR controversy being stirred up again - they could put it with another jab), but again, anecdotal as I don't have anything to cite.

We have the vac here in Spain, but you have to pay for it (but then you have to pay full price for nearly all other meds anyway, except for the "obligatory" childhood vacs).
Am glad I did it for ds, he still caught it but only had about 50 spots and recovered quickly with only one scar. His little friend was ill for 3 weeks and has bad scarring. Why risk that?

i'm torn

i want dd4 to have naturall immunity after catching it once if/when she does

but also want to protect dh from being in contact with her is she does get it.

so do i go for the jab or not

I think CP is seen as a mild chidhood ailment. I guess I might have thought the same at one time, but when my 3 dc had it I was shocked at how awful it was.

My dt's were only 6mths old and dd especially was swamped in it. It made her very ill and the marks took months to fade on their fragile baby skin.

I thik a vaccine is a good idea if there is a safe one to have. Most things boil down to money though

Misdee, could your dh not have the jab?

They also currently don't know how long the immunity lasts with CP vaccine.

catching up on these threads...

Having done some research lately it seems that having all these vaccines makes your body weaker. Rather like taking antibiotics, killing the good bacteria as well as the bad.

Both my Dd's have had chicken pox, both fine, apart from being off colour the previous day. Both eat well & at the time where breastfeeding - I am convinced this makes difference.

I don't get the vaccination to avoid scarring - will there be vaccinations against freckles/acne next ?

Vaccinating adults who haven't had chickenpox would make more sense. It most definitely isn't a mild illness in a lot of adults, especially if you catch it from one of your children, as I did. I also had a 22 month old with it at the same time, having also caught it from his ( very generous) brother.

I hadn't felt as ill for a long time, if ever, and was confined to bed for a week and pretty grotty for another 2. DS1 was scared to look at me because the spots were horrific and everywhere and my Mum couldn't come to help as she hadn't had it. My uncle ended up in hospital with pneumonia when he had it so I don't buy the ' mild' bit, I'm afraid.

This article about Chickenpox gives further food for thought

it can be very severe, and life threatening as an adult, usually mild as a child. it is worth considering vaccination for adults who have not previously had the disease.

for reference, the 'overloaded immune system' hypothesis has been utterly discredited. if a vaccine overloads the immune system, what on earth do you think taking a kid to a 'pox party' and getting full blown disease is going to do? I despair.

MSO, I think the overload theory is in relation to the number of vaccines that our children get in a very short period of time. Children a v unlikely to catch chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubellla, diptheria, tetanus, polio etc within a few weeks of each other if at all - yet all these diseases are injected pretty much simulataneously and directly into the child's immune system bypassing most of the body's natural defenses.

Mso the overloaded immune system hypothesis has not at all been discredited.

Currently in the US there is more and more research being done in this very area as official health bodies are forced to admit that vaccines do have a culmulative effect and that the ability to respond well to increasing numbers of vaccines varies enormously from one individual to another.

Indeed to argue otherwise is ridiculous and unscientific if you really think about it.

Rates of adverse reactions are much higher for the MMRV vaccine (as used in the US) than for the MMR for example.

We also know that children who have had a natural chicken pox infection in the period preceeding MMR vaccination are at a higher risk for adverse reaction.

Sorry if I sound rude but your post comparing a vaccine introduced virus to what you call a "full blown disease" suggests that you are under the impression that vaccination, virology, immunology, genetics and individual susceptibility are simple black and white factors. They are not.

(Have you been reading anything by the infamous Dr Offit which makes you believe that vaccines cannot overload the human immune system?)

IIRC it isn't one of the most effective vaccines so the cost/benefit exercise comes out against vaccinating.

"Overload" theory may sound sensible in theory but I dont think has a single bit of scientific evidence to back it up, despite repeated attempts to prove this.

Childrens immune systems start at an all time low and build up by being bombarded with all sorts of viruses, bacteria etc 24/7 continually. What immun systems do you think injecting vaccines bypass (other than the skin itself which is of course a part of our immne system).

In fact any one ear/respiritory tract infection puts far more strain on a childs immune system (which is why they actually get sick from it) than any number of vaccines do.

If multiple vaccines overwhelmed a child immune sustem there would be evidence that such children would be sicker after receiving multiple vaccines due being immunosuppressed. This just isn't the case.

I understand the emotional reaction making it sound feasible but it doesn't have a shred of evidence (that I have ever been able to find) in its favour.

Also if vaccines cannot in any way, ever, in any amount shape or form, ever overload the immune system of absolutely anybody why are nearly all vaccines contraindicated for immune suppressed people?

I thought that was one of the main reasons that the rest of us are expected to roll up our sleeves; to protect people whose immune systems could be overloaded by a single vaccine.

adverse reactions to a vaccine are not the same as arguing that the immune system is "overloaded".

If the immune system is overloaded it will not owrk properly and will expose a child to more infections.

Adverse reaction can be a known reaction to the vaccine, it would be a reaction to the constituent parts of a vaccine or just coincidence. Side effects don;t argue for "overload"

live vaccines are contraindicated for immunouppressed people becasue with their low/absent immune system tehre is a risk that even at such low levels they could catch the disease.

I'm not sure how you get from there to argue vaccines suppress your immune system. The vaccine doesn't suppress teh immune system (which barely exists) but introduces a source of the disease.

In the same way that you need to avoid exposure to CP itself if you are immunosuppressed, you need to all possible sources of infection.

vaccines work (generally) by stimulating your immune system not suppressing it. Am slightly baffled why anyone thinks most vaccines suppress your immune system.

Is my understanding or immune systems and vaccinations so completely wrong? WOuld be interesting if so as I spent some time immunosuppressed and at risk of CP at one point.

I also read about the CP vaccine that (as someone below has already said) it only lasts about 10 years so needs a booster. THis could potentially increase the risk of adults getting chicken pox which is a far worse illness than a child getting it as people may forget or just not bother to get the booster done so it is better to "get it out the road" so to speak in childhood.
A friend of mine caught Chicken pos from her children and was far more ill for far longer than any child I have known with it and she was actually genuinely angry at her mother for working so hard to keep her away from it as a child.

Kew I agree that vaccines stimulate the immune system. But they don't as much as th real illness. Obviously in most cases the vaccine is preferable to the illness, but it may not lead to life long immunity. However, even ds's pro vaccine immunologist agreed that vaccines injected do bypass a lot of the body's own immune defences - not just the skin but the lungs and the nose/throat. Very little research has been done on the very delicate balance of the immune system and triggers that can cause problems, for example very little is known about auto immune illnesses [myasthenia gravis happened to my dad over night recently and landed him paralysed and on a ventilator for 2 months - they haven't a clue what triggered it. He had had a flu vaccine just before it began, they have no idea if linked or not] Vaccines are certainly necessary and the better of two evils. But we cannot say categorically they have no negative effects in some cases.

chickenpox vaccine nuts. Except for immunosuppressed children and adults.

Vaccines bypass the mucus membranes which are the usual route of entry for viruses and bacteria. (Bypassing the skin which is an organ of major importance in assisting the immune system in avoiding infection with disease is also a major aggression for the body. Vaccinating people by puncturing their skin is responsible for thousands of cases of provocation polio evey year for example. Smallpox vaccination can cause disfiguring eczema in vulnerable individuals.)

The immune system functions on two levels called Th1 and Th2 and vaccination interfers with this carefully balanced mechanism.The mucus membranes play a vital role in how the immune system as a whole responds to an antigen and how the body engages the Th1/Th2 system. There is an increasing body of science which shows that vaccination can lead to a skewed Th1/Th2 cytokine profile. Such an outcome plays a role in the development of autoimmune disease and allergic disease; both of which are increasingly being demonstrated as being linked to vaccination.

Sorry am hugely oversimplyfying don't have time to post anything scientific. Will try to do so later.