circumcision yes or no

[morocco]

My 5 month old has a tight foreskin and doctors here recommend circumcision but Im really not keen. I spoke to docs in the UK and they said to wait and see but then I started worrying about whether it would be traumatic for him to be circumcised at say 4 or older and whether it might be better to just go ahead now. Has anyone been through this with a child of this age/older? All advice gratefully received

mumtotoby I could not agree more. Those links to sites showing circumcision have haunted me, and I am completely thick skinned about anything surgical. To cut off ANY nervous living tissue in a baby for no good reason and without anaesthetic is indeed babrbaric.
I could not sleep last night for thinking about this.

fwiw I think getting babies ears pierced is awful.
I recently saw a toddler walking along the street with pierced ears and a dummy sticking out his mouth

Jasper - I told dp what I had read and he too was sickened. It's haunting me too. And to make matters worse there are still people arguing that it doesn't really hurt!!!

Toddlers with pierced ears is ridiculous! I had mine done 11 years old as did my sister and brothers and I think thats young enough!!

Holly02 ... I am not so far from you ... I'm in NZ. I have been asking friends of mine around here and apparently it is not done here unless for religious or medical reasons ... but then we don't have the same hot weather as you Aussies (don't get me started on the amount of rain I have seen in Auckland in the last year!)
On the piercing front ... I was in a 'Clare's accesories' shop in Redhill a couple of years back and a little tot of about 2 was sitting in a chair screaming 'No mummy, I don't want to ... Please mummy!' and her mother was saying 'Shut up ... you are going to have your ears pierced whether you like it or not ... it will look really pretty...' I must say it did upset me quite a bit ... I didn't wait to see the deed done ...
Mum2Toby ... are you coming or going ? ... you have said several times that you are not going to participate anymore ... I think you have made your feelings clear now.

Ghosty - I don't think your comment was called for. I wasn't aware of any law on Mumsnet that said you couldn't rejoin a conversation!!! Holly02 did exactly the same.

Is there a law MUMSNET....?

Some more points were raised that I found to be interesting.

If that's your way of telling me to pi$$ off then I don't think you have ANY RIGHTS to say so. You have insulted me personally for no reason.

I certainly didn't think MUmsnet was a place wher eyou could be intimidated into NOT posting on a thread. Thanks for that Ghosty.... you're a lovely person.

Blimey ... I am sorry ... I didn't mean to upset you further. I really wasn't telling you to p* off ... but you have been repeating yourself quite a bit ... look, I won't say anymore.
I have never been a part of a fight on mumsnet before and I don't want to be a part of one now. Will you accept my apologies? I really didn't meant to offend ...

I have to say I am really shocked and diappointed by many comments on this thread. Morocco has asked for advice reagrding circumcision, which has been suggested for medical reasons. I am in a simialr position, although my son is older. I too was hoping for constructive advice from parents who had had similar experiences. I can't believe that it has been practically an all out slanging match discussing emotive and wide ranging subjects, focussing mainly on religious circumcision (female circumcision, smoking,ear piercing, child abuse...) Frankly, if you can't say something helpful and constructive, why bother????

Comments like I wouldn't ever let someone near my son with a knife (unless it's necessary) do nothing to alay the fears of parents, inform us or anything else. I am left more worried and less informed than when I made the mistake of reading this insulting barage of drivel.

Is morocco any further forward, or I or any other parent in this situation??
I know one or 2 of you have had helpful things to say, but that was 1 comment out of 20. I dread my son having to have a GA, I dread maybe my 2nd son will have to have the same operation. I was rather hoping for contructive comments and reassurance - oh, my ds had it done at 3 & he was fine, not pages of hysterical drivel rubbing my nose in the pain my son is about to suffer

Monkey please don't feel put off by it all. If your son has to have it done, shop around until you find a doctor who specialises in this area or at least is able to offer you some assistance with what your options are. As you can see, the experience doesn't have to be a dreadful one.

With regards to returning to this conversation (mum2toby/ghosty!) I was actually going to just 'hover' this morning and read everyone else's comments - I wasn't going to add any more until I read that Jasper had asked me a question, so I responded. Oh boy, this has been a fiesty one hasn't it...

Monkey don't worry about it. The fact is it's considered a perfectly normal procedure in a large number of countries and in the vast majority of cases is carried out so the baby feels little or no pain. It just so happens that the UK doesn't have a recent history of it and like many cultural norms elsewhere, it causes suspicion and revulsion to some of those to whom it isn't a familiar practice.

I have no interest at all in looking at all these internet sites on this or most other subjects. Generally, they are sensationalist, biased and often falsified.

Ghosty apology accepted - I'm being a bit over sensitive today.

Monkey I think the vast majority of the really strong, negative comments have not been directed at medical circumcision. Sorry if this thread has worried you further.

Monkey/ Morroco you are right about the level of hysteria (Mum2toby get some perspective please!). Life is not pain free and the level of pain that your son may go through is not great and I'm sure he will cope very well, as you can see there are plenty of methods of pain relief. And no circumcised man that I have heard of can remember the event!! He certainly will not hold it against you. In fact I hope my son will forgive me for NOT doing it. He may have wanted to be like his daddy, and I never bothered (HV very snooty about it!).

Thanks Mum2Toby ... I have been hitting 'active conversations' every 2 minutes since I last posted in the hope that you have forgiven me. Let's not fight anymore ...
While I was waiting I was looking into another VERY interesting thread (the 'rude' one) so I'm going back there ...
Monkey and Morrocco ... I hope you haven't been too upset by this thread ... hopefully you have been able to find some good advice and info here ... sorry that it all got a bit nasty ...

Lil - I do believe I'm not the only one with strong views expressed on this thread and don't appreciate being singled out by you as the only one.

Don't worry folks, this time I won't be posting again and god forbid I express an opinion.

My DH is muslim and therefore has been circumcised. If we should ever have a son we would have him circumcised. Admittedly we are living in the UK and the need for circumcision isn't as great as if we were in a hot country, but circumcision is a simple procedure to prevent infections that would be common living somewhere hot - much the same as having vaccinations to prevent catching certain diseases.
This thread, and all the horror stories, have rather startled me. I would sincerely like to think that these stories are few and far between. The procedure that Holly02 describes, I would hope is more realistic of how circumcision is performed these days.
Does anyone have any experience of circumcision in the UK?

There seems to be two issues here.

1. circumcision - is it for medical necessity or as some kind of traditional/religious procedure? Some of us feel strongly it should not be carried out unless for medical reasons, but I don't think that is the main point of conflict, which is

2. The method used to perform the procedure. You can't get away from the fact that cutting into nervous tissue is very painful and I continue to be appalled that anyone would allow this to happen to their child.

The fact men don't remember it is neither here nor there. I am sure my one year old won't remember falling on his face yesterday and smashing in his teeth and lips but that does not mean he was not in a lot of pain at the time.

Hi Morocco

Just to say that my ds had a couple of foreskin infections when he was a baby (he's now 2.2) and it was very traumatic, as I'm sure it for you, seeing his little willy hugely swollen and painful. At one point I was convinced the whole thing would fall off and he would grow up to be a serial killer. And don't get me started on dh's reaction!! However, the antibiotic cream cleared things up very quickly and he has not had any problems since. The doctors termed what he had as phymosis (sp?) which is basically a tight foreskin, so the same as your ds, I guess. They said that if he was still having infections at around 4-5 when the foreskin should be fully separated, then they might consider surgery then, but not neccessarily a full circumcision. I am happy to wait and things seem to be fine at the moment. Infant willy problems are quite common, apparently, in both circumcised and uncircumcised babies. As it happens, I had strongly considered having ds circumcised at birth, only because at that time I was under the impression that it was automatic for all boys(!) since dh was and also two of my long term boyfriends were also (one American). I did some reading and then asked male friends various personal questions and changed my opinion, but that is all it is, an opinion, and I do not hold any strong anti-circumcision views as there are always pros and cons. One of my son's godmothers is Jewish and she is mock horrified that I didn't get the snip done!

Anyway, a bit of a ramble, but I hope this helps and I hope your ds feels better soon.

In the interest of neutrality, and in an attempt to calm things down and reassure some people if need be...I'd like to post this can you tell I work for the BBC?

I think you should be able to make an informed decisions by reading about both sides of the argument.

well that website is certainly VERY pro circumcision! Found it a bit creepy the way the doctor kept referring to "lads"

Unfotunately I haven't managed to find any neutral sites, so I've just posted links to very pro or very anti ones. Its a very emotive subject, as all these posts reveal.

Perhaps someone can have a bit more of a delve to find some other link. I'm really meant to be working

To inflict pain on a child in that way, for no medical reason is in my opinion barbaric, and to say that it is done because it traditional is crap. Many things have been traditional over the years, but hey they've dropped to the way side, I think that it is hellish to allow this to happen in this day and age, expecially as some charities are campaigning for this procedure to be stopped in some foreign countries. I do know people who ahve had this done and said that it was excrutiatingly painful days after they had been circumsised.

Haven't read all of this, so I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but I remember hearing a news report about men who were circumsized when babies, who are now getting plastic surgery to get their foreskins re-built.

oh yes, nqwww, it's all the rage in California, reclaiming your foreskin!

I think it is sad that anyone feels that they are being ganged up on, I do believe that people have a right to their opinion. Lets face it this is a subject that is going to get passionate, some people see it as something they have to do (for various reasons) and others feel why should a piece of skin that they were born with be removed for anything other that non-medical reasons.

I have a son and IMO I think that this is wrong, I remember my brother having it done at age 8 (for medical reasons) and he had to take a week off school and was in a lot of pain. No matter what the procedure I can't believe that babies do not feel pain, of course they do.

I do hope that we havent put off anyone from asking questions on mumsnet, I just think that people should not have the right to imply someone is not welcome.

To lighten up this thread somewhat, does anyone else remember the serious programme on TV years ago all about the history of this box in the Vatican (I think that's where it's ended up) which is supposed to contain the foreskin of Jesus Christ?....t'is true