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circumcision yes or no

387 replies

morocco · 16/03/2003 23:18

My 5 month old has a tight foreskin and doctors here recommend circumcision but Im really not keen. I spoke to docs in the UK and they said to wait and see but then I started worrying about whether it would be traumatic for him to be circumcised at say 4 or older and whether it might be better to just go ahead now. Has anyone been through this with a child of this age/older? All advice gratefully received

OP posts:
Bumblelion · 18/03/2003 13:27

Just to add my penny-worth. My ex-DH had to be circumcised at age 9 because of medical reasons and, to be honest, he always had a bit of a hang-up about this - never feeling totally comfortable about the way his penis looked ... scar tissue, etc. When our second child was born (a boy) I asked him whether he wanted him to be circumcised - had never really discussed the reasons why ex-DH had been circumcised, bit of a taboo subject. He categorically said he would NOT want our DS to be circumcised unless he had a medical problem that necessitated it. May be because ex-DH was 9 but he was very traumatised by the operation and the long-term effects concerning his confidence in bed, etc.

Although saying that, most men (and there is not that many!) I have slept with have been circumcised and I always found circumcised penises to be very clean, tidy, etc. although I couldn't really compare an intact one with a circumcised one.

Sorry to be blunt ...

Since ex-DH and I split, I have had another (brief) relationship with a man who was not circumcised and, once erect, and the foreskin has retracted, it looks and feels no different to a circumcised one.

sml2 · 18/03/2003 13:28

A few things strike me about this discussion.
Firstly, people don't seem to have made the distinction between circumcising tiny babies and circumcising older children. IMO, there is a bit difference, and I'm personally dismayed to hear that there's a trend towards having it done at a younger age in Morocco. The older child understands what's going on, and isn't strapped down. They also remember it happening, which helps them to make a balanced decision about having it done to their own children. By the way, apparently it isn't practical to leave it until adulthood, as it doesn't look as nice then.

Secondly, underlying many contributions is a very European view of self. Other cultures can have different attitudes about, say, personal responsibility. People see themselves as part of a family rather than an individual. So, instead of the consequences of your decision affecting you (ie the adult male choosing to have it done for himself), they affect your children. If you don't agree with your parents' decision, you can decide differently for your child. After all, presumably most people love their small children as they love themselves, and would make the same decision for them.

Another point is that Aloha referred to "pointless and outdated tradition." This isn't accurate because the reasons why people have circumcision done today are the same as they have always been, ie hygiene and aesthetic appeal. Personal hygiene is considered far more important in North Africa for example, than it is in Britain. One example of this is that North Africans wash themselves with water when they go to the loo, and they regard Europeans as dirty, because they only wipe themselves with dry loo paper, which can't be as effective. Also, in hotter climates, hygiene is far more important because bacteria spread more easily. So that is a big factor.
The aesthetic appeal factor is also huge. Most Berber women won't even consider marrying an uncircumcised man, much the same as a non-smoker in the UK would tend to rule out smokers as a category when seeking a spouse.

sml2 · 18/03/2003 13:31

Lil - I once saw a photo on a tv documentary of some apparatus that was used for strapping babies down for this operation, and it was indeed gruesome.

Lil · 18/03/2003 13:47

ok, reading those sites has seriously put me off my lunch...I am keeping off this thread now!

mum2toby · 18/03/2003 13:50

Has it changed your opinion about ritual circumcisions though.... performed without proper anaesthesia?

Bozza · 18/03/2003 14:36

But Sml that doesn't explain why the majority of nominally Christian American baby boys are circumcised.

Lil · 18/03/2003 14:41

mum2toby, I still think the actual 'act' of circumcision is very quick and easily forgotten by the baby(straps or otherwise!). It is not a big deal in the grand scheme of life. But I definitely question its necessity in the 21st century, and could happily see it got rid of!

Tissy · 18/03/2003 17:30

But, Lil, my point was the pain I inflicted on my daughter was relatively mild, short-lived and accidental. Circumcision, even with anaesthetic will be sore for how long? Weeks probably.

Tissy · 18/03/2003 17:31

Sorry, didn't mean to refresh!

sml2 · 18/03/2003 18:08

Bozza
I wasn't commenting on the religious aspects of circumcision, so don't quite understand what you are getting at.

Tissy
After effects are generally considered to last about 10 days

bundle · 18/03/2003 18:12

like Bozza I'd like to know why the majority of American boys are circumcised. does anyone from the States have a view???

robinw · 18/03/2003 18:21

message withdrawn

Tissy · 18/03/2003 21:20

sml2- 10 days, says who? the baby?

Sorry, not really meaning to be confrontational, but how do we know how sore it is?

Bundle- one of those links earlier on mentioned that the US army circumcised a lot of men ? in the 40s/ 50s, as they thought it reduced the spread of VD. Men now apparently want their sons to look like they do- seeing an uncircumcised willy as somehow ugly!

(I think they're all pretty ugly with or without a foreskin!)

jasper · 18/03/2003 22:11

Holly02 I am intrigued. How was your baby boy circumcised without a knife or cutting of any kind? I am interested in the actual procedure and how it was carried out if you don't mind me asking.
Thanks.

judetheobscure · 18/03/2003 22:26

jasper - you may find holly02 doesn't reply - she said this morning she was "bowing out of the slanging match"

Does anyone else know the answer to the question?

morocco · 18/03/2003 22:56

I didn't check out the latest website as they sounded too ghastly but I'm sure babies are not strapped down for this kind of op here at least.

The only circumcision I have seen was on video (strange I know)and altho the little boy cried afterwards he was really happy a few minutes later when he got lots of presents and hugs - bit like a bday party. His mum seemed the most upset. This doesn't mean I am in favour of circumcision just to get pressies!

I worry most about using general anaesthetic and also mental trauma in older kids-I'm afraid sml2 I think it is a good trend to have boys circumcised younger, not because the pain is less but surely they will remember it less? I'd hold a grudge against my mum for letting someone cutting a bit off me.

Hope people are not too upset by this whole thread - my first one too!

OP posts:
StuartC · 18/03/2003 23:42

Here's a website which does not claim to be unbiased, but it does give the arguments against circumcision in an unemotional form.
mothersagainstcirc.org

Holly02 · 18/03/2003 23:59

It's ok Jasper, I've quietly crept back in this morning just to see if this thread was still alive - and surprise surprise, it is.

Just want to say I'm glad that Sml2 brought up the subject of circumcisions also being done for 'aesthetic' reasons - I think that has a lot to do with why people have them done, as well as for hygiene benefits. I think hygiene is especially important in hot climates, as our summer temperatures are usually up around 35 deg or higher, which I think is around 110 F. (not sure). When the humidity is high, you sweat continuously unless you are lucky enough to be in air conditioning.

Anyway - ds' circumcision was the most uneventful thing I have ever been through. He didn't cry and actually was asleep straight afterwards - he didn't even know what was going on, and he certainly wasn't strapped down. (His routine vaccinations upset him a lot more, I can tell you!!) Basically, the doctor - who's done thousands of circumcisions - has a consultation with you first, to inform you of the benefits involved and to make sure you undertand how it's all done. On the day that the baby is scheduled to have the procedure done, anaesthetic cream is applied about 3 times beforehand to make sure that there is a good coverage, then the doctor places a tiny plastic ring over the end of the penis, which holds the foreskin back. Then it's just a matter of waiting a few days, when the extra skin and the plastic ring just come off of their own accord. It is a very simple procedure, and it doesn't remove quite as much skin as a surgical circumcision.

The doctor assured me that there was little discomfort involved in using this method. Ds didn't act any differently after having this procedure done - he seemed happy, he didn't cry any more than usual, his appetite was good and he slept well. I'm just glad that there is now a more humane way to have it done. Hope this helps Jasper... I shall sneak off again now and hope I don't attract a torrent of abuse.

jasper · 19/03/2003 02:17

Thanks Holly02. I have never heard of this.
The things you learn on mumsnet when you can't sleep !

Ghosty · 19/03/2003 07:11

Wow ... I have just come back to this thread and can't believe the can of worms my story seems to have opened. I do hope people can agree to disagree and be friends again ...
Holly02 ... the procedure your son went through sounds much less traumatic and much more humane than the conventional method ...
Where do you live btw? Just being nosey!
Just a thought ... people who have their little girl's ears pierced as babies and toddlers (many young girls in Spain have their ears pierced I seem to remember) ... Are they practising child abuse too?

hmb · 19/03/2003 07:31

Not just ears either. Dd went to a play area, and there was a notice asking for all piercings to be removed. The play leader told me that she has seen several 7 years olds with belly button pierced.

Holly02 · 19/03/2003 08:19

Good point - ear piercing is not exactly painless and would probably be quite traumatic for a little child to go through!

I'm in Australia Ghosty... seems like there's quite a few Aussies hanging around on Mumsnet. Circumcisions are not routinely done here anymore, I was told (after I went home from hospital) that I could've had him done in hospital straight after birth, but it's not something they tell you about beforehand, so I got the impression that it's not a popular thing to do anymore. My ob/gyn told me afterwards about this particular doctor who is well known for using the plastic ring method, so I went to him when ds was about 3 1/2 weeks.

mum2toby · 19/03/2003 08:27

Holly02 - that certainly sounds like a much more humane way of doing it. Although I still don't understand the reasons for having part of your sons genitals removed at all!!

I will stick to my opinion. I can't believe anyone would condone a ritual circumcision which involved cutting away the foreskin with NO anaesthetic. Am I the only one here in disbelief that this is allowed to happen!!!????

AM I also the only one that thinks that it's wrong to cut away a part of a boys penis then give him hugs and kisses and celebrate the fact that it's just been done..... like a birthday party!!??? EH?

Something's wrong out there!!

bells2 · 19/03/2003 09:00

When I was growing up in Australia, it was the norm for boys to be circumcised. All my brothers were and every Australian boyfriend of mine was. I was amazed when I arrived in the UK that people had such strong opinions on it, for the simple reason that I had never heard it discussed as being an issue before. It was carried out largely for hygiene reasons due to the hot climate.

As Holly says, opinion has now changed in Australia and I think that now, only around 15% of boys there are circumcised. I wouldn't choose to do it to a child of mine but I really don't think it is that big an issue to men who have had it done.

Holly02 · 19/03/2003 09:01

Mum2toby I agree that there's no need whatsoever in this day and age for a ritual circumcision, where there is no anaesthetic and the baby goes through pain and trauma.

My reasons as I said before, are

  • hygiene (much less risk of infection etc)
  • my husband and family are all circumcised so it's the norm for me
  • a small part of it is aesthetic, in other words, how it looks.

All the men I have ever been with have been circumcised, so basically it's always been a normal and accepted thing to me, and it's only been in recent times that I've heard about people being so anti-circumcision. That's really about it.

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