circumcision yes or no

[morocco]

My 5 month old has a tight foreskin and doctors here recommend circumcision but Im really not keen. I spoke to docs in the UK and they said to wait and see but then I started worrying about whether it would be traumatic for him to be circumcised at say 4 or older and whether it might be better to just go ahead now. Has anyone been through this with a child of this age/older? All advice gratefully received

Tissy
10 days is the normal time that small boys (not babies remember) wear loose clothing in Algeria after the op.

It certainly used to be the case that it was done without anaesthetic, and I'm reliably informed that it feels like a moment's stinging. There is some sort of little machine, it's not a knife so it can't slip and cut anything else. I am not sure, but I don't think my sons had any anaesthetic. They were swimming a week afterwards with no ill effects.

We didn't go for the party by the way.

I wondered whether to post this as I am sure some people will think I am the original evil mother for allowing this to happen to my children. I am doing so to demonstrate that circumcision is really not a big deal if it's done in a competent way.

morocco, it's not worth worrying about. Maybe you won't have to have it done at all. I think a lot of how your child takes it is down to how you yourself react. If you are happy with the reason why it's being done, and confident that it's the right thing, I'm sure your son won't be traumatised.

monkey, surely a general anaesthetic is dangerous in itself? I've never heard of a child having to have one for circumcision before, especially if the plastic ring method that Holly described is available.

Meid,
we preferred to have it done in Algeria by a specialist. This is because dh and I have both had experiences of poor service from the NHS, and we wanted to be sure that this op was done to the highest possible standard.

Ahhh god bless the NHS- I wouldn't trust them to sort out an ingrown toenail.

One of DH's friends was circumcised at 21- medical reasons- I remember he wore track suit bottoms for a while afterwards- and looked a bit uncomfortable.

I have to say I'm not sure what my opinion is on this- I've never even considered getting it done, didn't occur to me. Don't think my boys foreskins retract (1 and 3) - didn't think they were meant to yet. I think I would find it very hard to purposely inflict pain on a tiny baby. The book The Red Tent (brilliant book) has some great thoughts about circumcision.

I'd like to see someone try and circumcise ds1- the blood tests were interesting enough. I can't even manage to cut his nails. And I have yet to meet a GP or consultant who's managed to look in his ears.

that's what that restraining board on the websites is for.
I am intrigued at the pro website stuff about preventing problems later on. For exactly this reason only two generations ago in our own dear country it was commonplace to have all teeth extracted on entering adulthood to prevent pain and infection in later life. Please don't anyone accuse me of trying to muddy the waters. I'm not, I'm just pointing out that what is considered ok can change in the space of a few decades.

The other intriguing point on the pro circ side is the idea women find it more aesthetic. Maybe they do, maybe they don't , but I would be most offended to read the corollary on some pro labia minora reduction website ,ie that men find a trimmed fanny more appealing.

Sml, I am worried both about the circumcision itself and obviously the ga. Please don't use words like dangerous!! My 2nd son had to have a ga last summer and I found the process of him both going under and coming round extremely traumatic.

Our paediatrition (sorry sp) has told me it will definitely be done under ga, but I have not yet seen the specialist - our appointment is mid-April, so I have neither confirmation from the surgeon nor details of the method involved.

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What we may view as barbaric in this country and culture, is normal in another. I'm sure many countries would find feeding your kids MacDonalds Happy Meals extremely cruel too - I certainly do!

If done properly I don't find circumcision offensive at all. What about piercing babies ears? Any piercing can also be prone to infection, yet that is done regularly to babies who have no choice in the matter in this country. I wouldn't do it myself, but I wouldn't condemn others who choose to do so. I think we should look at the wider implications before making generalisations such as 'it's barbaric'. In some countries this is their religion and culture you are condemning!

Anyway lighten up - it's Spring!

Ridiculous analogy with asking for advice on breastfeeding imo.

My "normal scientific approach" is well intact, thanks for your concern.

As it happens I am very skeptical of much of what I see on the internet ( as a simple test look up websites on something you have first hand experience of and see how much rubbish is out there) and I don't base my "normal scientific approach" primarily on info from websites but you know that.

I don't need to look up websites to know how nervous tissue reacts to being cut WITHOUT ANAESTHETIC which has been my biggest point of concern in this debate. I am well placed to comment on this as you well know.

AS for condemning some people's religion and culture - damn right I do! Have you been watching the news lately??

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Don't get me started on having dental work done without adequate anaesthetic....

Can not belive this is still going on.

I think people should agree to disagree on this one.

Do not see the point of trying to wind people up again. I think it was obvious that Mum2toby smoked when she was pregnant, so why bring this up again. Not really mean't for IMO. I have had some really good advice from you in the past RobinW, and I do hope I will again, maybe we have covered everything now.

Try and remember ALL that new people might be lurking at this thread and seeing how nasty we have got, this may put off people registering in the future and lose money for mumsnet. Truce

Cheers Breeze - it's awful when it comes down to low digs like that.

well said breeze

morocco - hope all is well with your ds and that this thread did not add unduly to your worry.

Starting a thread is a little like having a child in as much as you're never sure if it'll develop into a helpful little angel or an argumentative horror ) but that shouldn't put us off doing it.

Grief - I sound like my Mum !

monkey
how old is your ds? Is there any particular reason why a GA has been recommended? I'd definitely want to know why it was considered necessary for an op which is comparable to having one's ears pierced.

sml2 thank you for your advice about having it done on the NHS (or not). When I was pregnant (before we found out it was a girl) we did some research and it seems that circumcision is quite hard to get done in the UK. Should we ever have a son I will remember what you have said and we may consider going abroad.

sml - My son is 3.5 no, I don't know why a ga has been recommended. I have seen my son's doc many times, and several times he has raised concerns over his foreskin which is so tight it cannot be retracted at all. He has had a couple of infections. It has not improved over the last 2.5 years at all, so the last time we saw him, a couple of weeks ago, he recommended circumcision, as there was no improvement, and took the sooner rather than later view, which, considering there is no imporvement, I agree with.

I specifically asked the doctor if he would have a local anaesthetic & he replied that it would be general. He didn't explain further.

Like I said, I have not seen the consultant yet, so have not had the opportunity to ask. I know nothing of the operation, but actually removing his foreskin sounds a tad more serious than having one's ears pierced. I have to say, this thread has made me feel 100 times worse about the operation, and comments regarding links to other sites have totally put me off investigating further myself, for fear of what other horrible things I will be presented with.

I will have to wait & speak to the doc concerned & take his word for it, as I clearly can't get the help I need here (although you are being helpful sml, but most of the comments here most certainly are not)

I thought these discussions were supposed to support other parents going through similar situations, & share knowledge?? I have had a lot of help over the past couple of years on mumsnet, but this whole discussion has been a disgrace frankly. - That's not aimed at you btw sml!

I hardly think you can call it disgraceful not to support other mothers if they are planning to inflict pointless pain on their tiny defenceless babies. I don't think the point of this site to to defend the indefensible. If someone said they had their child's earlobes amputated because they don't think they looked very nice, should we all offer our support?. Of course doing something for sound medical reasons it is different from pointless ritual. Indeed, amputating part of a child's ear would be fine if they had a tumour or terrible infection.
On the issue of looking the same as dad, well, if your husband was missing the tip of his little finger would you consider cutting off part of your child's finger just because he wanted his son to look the same as him?
The essence of this argument is that if a proper surgeon thinks an operation should happen for the medical benefit of the child then nobody is arguing against that - no matter how painful & disfiguring (or not) the procedure may be. But if anyone is looking for support for hurting a baby for no good medical reason, then you can't support behaviour that is morally and ethically repugnant to you - or indeed that you think disgraceful.

I think it's terrible to stick a needle in a baby's ear, purely for the reason of being able to stick a piece of jewellry in there. Pierced ears can lead to infection if not done properly. I simply cannot see the difference between this and circumcision - or docking puppies tails for that matter! I wouldn't have my dd's ears pierced, but I know a lot who have.
Isn't the point of Mumsnet to support each other no matter what choices we make? This is hardly an abuse issue is it? Jesus probably had his done, as did all the males of his culture - so if it's good enough for him......

I think that roughly speaking there are three types of thread on Mumsnet - ones for advice, ones for entertainment and ones to discuss issues and I think that the problem here is that the advice and issues threads are mixed together (also happens on GF, MMR etc threads).

So while morocco originally asked for advice on a probably necessary medical procedure which most or all people have no issue with, a lot of time has been spent discussing ritual/traditional/aesthetic circumcision. I'm sorry morocco but I think the wording of the title may have contributed to this. If it had been "operation for tight foreskin - now or later?" it might not have got so heated so quickly. I'm in no way blaming morocco merely offering my explanation. I hope you've got something useful from all this morocco.

I don't think anyone has to support other people's choices but I think to condemn the cultural habits of others using sensationalist language is unhelpful. As I think has been made clear, the vast majority of circumcisions do not inflict pain.

monkey
actually the amount of skin that's removed is surprisingly small. I would definitely get a second opinion about this as I've never heard of any child of that age needing a GA for a routine circumcision and, as I said before, that's the normal age for it in Algeria. Is the paediatrician who told you this experienced with circumcision?
I've looked into private clinics in the UK that specialise in circumcision in the past, but the ones I spoke to only dealt with tiny babies, and our sons were older, like yours. But it might be an avenue worth pursuing, to get some more information. Your best bet might be a Moroccan or Algerian clinic because of your son's age, but unfortunately I don't know of any off hand. There aren't that many Algerians and they tend to return to DZ for things like that. If there was any clinic, it might be based in North London. There are loads of places in France of course.
Alternatively, why not try a few transatlantic calls to US clinics, just to get information?

HELP! I've got a stalker!!

It's not sensationalist language. It is abusive to hurt tiny babies pointlessly. What else could it be? And no, unsurprisingly I don't agree with piercing babies' ears either. I hate all this 'respect other people's cultures' rubbish. So it's OK to stone women to death for adultery if it's 'their culture'? Or slice off a girl's labia because its 'their culture'? I'm on the side of the babies here. If it hurts and harms them and doesn't help them, then I'm fiercely against it. I would fight anyone to the death who wanted to cut off bits off my son. BTW I do also think the 'they don't remember' argument is such idiocy. Babies don't remember things not because they aren't painful/important etc, but because the part of their brains involved in memory aren't developed yet. My son wouldn't have remembered if I'd broken both his legs, but it wouldn't make it right to do it. I just can't bear the coldness and the lack of compassion involved. To actually plan to cut your tiny, defenceless baby.... to me, this defies belief. certainly, if they want to be circumcised as adults, that's totally their affair, but to impose your beliefs irrevocably and painfully on a baby. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I wish I could prevent it. I feel so sad I can't.

Monkey - I would think that it is far more sensible for a child of that age to have a GA. Local anaesthetic is alright if you understand fully what is about to happen to you. A child of 3.5 yrs will be much less traumatised by having a GA. My dd needed a tooth removed at that age because she had fallen and damaged it. A light GA was recommended so that she would not be so traumatised that she would not co-operate or want to return to the dentist. Your ds would have much more to be traumatised about to be awake throughout the procedure.