circumcision yes or no

[morocco]

My 5 month old has a tight foreskin and doctors here recommend circumcision but Im really not keen. I spoke to docs in the UK and they said to wait and see but then I started worrying about whether it would be traumatic for him to be circumcised at say 4 or older and whether it might be better to just go ahead now. Has anyone been through this with a child of this age/older? All advice gratefully received

Circumcision is assault. If you did it to a stranger in the street you'd be locked up for years. And yet people volunteer their sons for it.
I don't care whether there is a religious tradition or not - it is assault. The child is not asked for his opinion; he doesn't sign a consent form.
How many men choose to be circumcised as adults? None - unless there is an overpowering medical reason.
It's hard luck that some people have taken offence at the comments on this thread - maybe those people should have thought the issue through before they allowed some doctor or some religious nut to mutilate their sons.
How on earth do educated people allow their babies to continue to be assaulted? Americans are predominately Christian and therefore don't have the religious shackle of circumcision - but they still allow it to be done to their sons. Why? Where is the logical argument?
As for the religious people - why not leave the child as Nature and God intended ( 'Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness' )? If a baby boy is good enough for God, surely he's good enough for his parents?
Leave him intact until he's an adult and allow him his own choice. I bet I know what his choice will be. I bet you all know as well.

Well said Tissy and StuartC - If they don't like the thought of what they allowed to happen to their sons was painfula nd wrong then they shouldn't have allowed it.

Ritual circumcision without aneasthetic for the sake of religion IS CRUEL!!!!!!

StuartC - my uncle volunteered to be circumcised after years of recurrent infections, and after years of passing these infections on to his wife. Once he had it done, he said he wished he'd had it done years before - and he said he didn't lose his 'sensation' because of it. According to my SIL, my uncircumcised BIL has also had on-going problems and he said it might have been better if he was circumcised when he was young, as his brother was. His brother is my dh, who has never had a moment's problem since he was done at 3 or 4.

ANYWAY - now that this thread has turned into a bit of a slanging match, I think I'll bow out of it and leave everyone else to sort it out. I'm off to find another less contentious subject...

Yes, but StuartC... in the bible didn't God tell Abraham to circumcise himself and his sons to prove himself to Him? This is why Jewish people and Muslim people do this as an affirmation of their faith.
I do not and cannot agree with your views on this. My DH has just said to me (we have been talking about this since I got involved in this thread) that although he found the thing he witnessed awful he totally understood the religious reasons for it.
I don't think people should go around accusing people of assault ...

Well I knew I should read this thread, being jewish means that I don't even think about it, it is just the 'done' thing. However I had 2 girls, so ....

Now I can totally respect peoples different views and various subjects and I rarely ever enter into an argument here as I find them pointless and upsetting. Yes I can understand that cicumcision is a difficult subject, and in some part I can see why people don't agree with it. However it is not child abuse, if it were every jew and muslim in the country would be locked up. So please don't accuse me of not loving my kids and subjecting them to abuse, at least Ghosty agrees that although the religious circumcision was horrible, it was done for all the right reasons.

Please don't accuse me, or any others on this thread of abuse simply because of our beliefs. If I were anothe sort of person, this thread would really upset me, and discourage me from posting here. I feel it is too personal, and worse than some of the GF threads.

The original question has now been answered and Morocco has decided to wait.

Ghosty we posted at the same time!!! Thanks for agreeing with me, so once again

Circumcision is not assault, abuse, or any such thing, I am sorry so many of you are so ill informed.

In case anyone thinks I favour one religion over another, I don't. I'm athiest.

I'll respect anybody else's beliefs and traditions as long as they don't force their practices onto anyone else - such as a helpless child.

Let circumcision be a decision for an adult male to make - for himself only.

A friend of mine is Jewish and her first child was a boy so went through the ritual circumcision. She said that it was awful, and she hated him having it done. However, when pregnant for the second time, she said that if it was a boy he would be circumcised, even though she'd been so upset when her eldest was done. She was so relieved when the second baby was a girl.
Other Jewish friends have had 2 boys and both have been 'done' even though the parents hated the idea, and hated the ceremony, and the pain, etc. 'IT'S TRADITION' - that's the only answer they give when questioned as to the point.

I just can't understand the point of putting your tiny baby through pain, to remove a bit of skin that it entirely natural, in the name of religion and tradition.

I would imagine you would be hard pushed to find an adult practising Jew or Muslim who would not choose to be circumcised if he hadn't already been so.

Croppy - I bet if an adult chose to have it done they'd opt for an anaesthetic though!!!!!!!!

I think it is hard to think about religion because of some of the problems in the world that are cause by religion.

I can kind of see both sides here, however saying that if the child does indeed suffer and the parents are the ones putting them through this, then what can you call this.

I like holly02 have made my comment and will go and find a less confrontational thread.

It's actually really upsetting me that people will do this to their own children (and I'm talking about ritual circumcision, not a medical procedure with Anaesthetic) and justify it by saying that it's ok coz it's traditional. PLEEEASE STOP THIS!

I'm bowing out too.

MUM2TOBY - ritual circumcision is NOT done without anaesthetic, You will find that these days creams are put on the babies willies that numb it. If the parents are very religious and don't want this then they will follow the age old custom of giving the baby wine to drink beforehand, which also numbs the pain.

Stuart C and the like why don't you go and talk to a circumcised man before ranting and raving about child abuse. You will be hard pressed to find that these men regret it at all. If they don't regret it what the hell has it got to do with you????

and there ARE benefits to being circumcised... I am married to a circumcised man I should know!!!!

Lil, I am glad you brought that up ... I have been out with two circumcised men and there is definitely a difference isn't there?

No more comments. Apart from - I don't think a glass of wine would numb the pain of having my ears pierced never mind anything else.
And giving wine to a baby!!!????? Another issue entirely.

I've been out with a circumcised man too. Circumcised for medical reasons when he was 8 years old and said it was extremely painful for days afterwards.

oh no..now you're going to tell us that giving babies alcohol is child abuse too..sigh. Once upon a time, bfore the invention of calpol whiskey in babies milk was the best pain relief there was. please get some perspective here!!

and yes mum2toby, circumcising children and adults IS painful that's why it ts done on day old babies. Their perception of pain is entirely different.

There are many atrocities committed in the name of religion. In my view, infant circumcision is one of them - the only acceptable reasons for circumcision are medical necessity/desirability or presonal choice.

But giving enough alcohol to act as pain relief!!! We're not talking about a drop of whiskey. And how the hell do you know if their perception of pain is different?

End of story.... it is painful and cruel and most of the time totally unecessary.

Don't really want to add fuel to the fire, but my ex was Jewish, (willow2 and he was circumcised at birth and I assume he still is circumcised ). He did wish he hadn't been circumcised as he was really curious about how different it would have been if he still had that piece of skin. I'm sure if he had been given the choice as an adult he wouldn't have had it done. There are Jewish campaigners against circumcision. I'll look for some info when I have time.

fascinating thread! and I honestly don't how I feel about this. Can I sit on the fence, please?

Instinctively don't agree with inflicting pain on a baby and taking away something something that nature gave him, but I am not jewish or muslim and don't know enough about the actual procedure and religious significance of the circumcision. And I am absolutely sure that all those devout Jewish or Muslim parents don't have a casual attitude to inflicting pain on their baby either.

Personally I have less understanding of those who are not circumcising for health, religious or traditional reasons but do it because everyone else does. But then, if every parent you know says it was painless for their children, and the circumcised babies you see have no problems afterwards, then why would you question it?

I agree its painful, of course it is, ...and I can totally understand why people don't want to do it to their child, but the reason I am so angry with this thread is when words such as 'cruel', 'traumatic', 'child abuse' and 'atrocity' are used. These words lose their true meaning when applied to something as minor as the act of circumcision.

I wonder if it was the removal of a flap of skin anywhere else on the body, whether it would be such an emotive issue! The man's sacred willie eh

Yes there are Bobbins but as I understand it they are a tiny minority, after all circumcision around the world persists largely because men want it for their sons. Out of interest, was your ex a practising Jew?

Croppy, he wasn't orthodox, he was a kibbutznik.