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circumcision yes or no

387 replies

morocco · 16/03/2003 23:18

My 5 month old has a tight foreskin and doctors here recommend circumcision but Im really not keen. I spoke to docs in the UK and they said to wait and see but then I started worrying about whether it would be traumatic for him to be circumcised at say 4 or older and whether it might be better to just go ahead now. Has anyone been through this with a child of this age/older? All advice gratefully received

OP posts:
mum2toby · 27/03/2003 09:03

Jimjams - yes I am judging now coz I'm sick of religion being used to justify ANYTHING. Have a look at the wars that have been 'justified' as holy wars. I know it's off the subject, but for goodness sake will people just stop!

Also, I presume your son had blood tests for serious medical reasons that could seriously affect his future well being. I don't think you could have, or would have put your son through all that for the sake of a religious ceremony, for a religion he may, or may not choose to follow in his adult life!

lisalisa · 27/03/2003 10:21

Message withdrawn

Jimjams · 27/03/2003 11:05

mum2toby- for goodness sake circumcision is the removal of a flap of skin. Most american men are circumcised- just for tradition! It's not religious genocide!

Right I'm going to leave circumcision for a bit to try and explain why I don't think you should be so judgemental about things you know nothing about.

Picture the scene. You've taken your dd/ds to a miniature pony farm for the day. On the way in you notice a boy- about 3- who appears to be studying the gift shop door handle quite intently. He's kind of in the way of your buggy, but his mother just moves him physically slightly so you can get past. As you move your buggy past he tries to grab it. His mother just says "come away" and he lets go and returns to the door handle. Still his parents just watch him. Then you hear his mother say "come on lets look at the gee gees" and try to walk away with him- he runs back to the door absolutely screaming. Next the father pickes him up and says "gee gees gee gees" and tries to carry him away from the door- he tried to headbutt the father and starts slapping him. Still he isn't told off. You look agaoin after about 10 minutes and he's still there. Soon you have to walk that way again and you hear the mother say "oh look slide" - the boy starts to run- straight for your child- the parent's don't say anything and he swerves out of the way and doesn't hit your child- bit scary though. For the next half hour or so you see him on the slide. Later you see him by the pony trecking - the helper tries to put a hat on him and he starts screaming and hitting his mother. The mother says a few things to the helper, she nods and he gets on the pony without a hat. Later you see the family eating lunch on a picnic table. The little boy won't sit down and appears to be eating crap- plain crisps, raisins and not much else. He has some strange looking jam snadwhiches- they look very dry, but he ignores those. Meanwhile the parents are tucking into - very nice looking helathy sandwiches. They don't off the child any.

So what's your verdict? Spoiled child? Terrible parenting? Talking to him in baby langauge (gee gee)? Letting him get away with it? He;s got them wrapped around his little finger?

Well no- that child was my ds1- apart from the lunch- we don't do lunch in public places unless it's an absolute necessity.

That child is autistic- he finds strange places stressfull and when he's stressed he glues himself to doors. There's no point trying to pull him away as he'll headbutt the concrete. He grabs passing buggies as he's fascinated by them- he does let go when told to though. His language is very delayed (he can say gee gee - he can't say horse). Like many autistic children he can't look and listen- so if I shouted "watch out" as he ran towards your child he would be more likely to bump into him. Again like many autistics he uses peripheral vision a lot which is why he looks as if he's running toward someone- I know he won't hit them. He has extreme tactile sensitivity and just cannot wear hats- we're working on reducing this - not there yet though. And I haven't even gone into the grass issues or the swing issues or whatever other nightmares we have when we try to have a day out. Oh and the apalling lunch and not sitting down- won't sit down as he's in a new place. Has a very very limited diet (I think he eats 10 different things- which isn't actually too limited for autism) and is gluten free - his diet is just about balanced and to be honest I have far bigger things to worry about. We are seeing a nutritionist who understands autism in June thpough (essential the last idiot told me to use star charts durrr).

So off topic- but to try and demostrate why you should not judge when you know nothing about something. You do not know anything about circumcision- the procedures that have been described here by people who have seen them do not sound like major surgery. so once more DON"T JUDGE!

Holly02 · 27/03/2003 11:09

Mum2toby, male & female genitalia are obviously very different, and perhaps the female genitals are less of a breeding ground for bacteria etc. I don't think the 'labia' thing really applies... and thrush is more of an internal problem isn't it?!!

My trusty document here says that "the presence of an intact foreskin provides a warm, moist environment that allows a longer time for viral survival" and "pathogenic organisms are able to multiply in the warm, moist environment under the foreskin." (Boy this discussion is really going places isn't it!). I suppose that even when relatively clean, it can still be more susceptible to disease.

bells2 · 27/03/2003 11:09

Brilliant post Jimjams.

hmb · 27/03/2003 11:12

Jimjam, I'm at a loss to know what to type. Anything seems trite and glib. By cyberhugs to you and all your family, and thank you for using what must have been a dreadful time (and I realise they happen often), to help open up our eyes to what happens in other families. I just wish there was something I could do. As an aside I'm going to be working with at least one ASD boy in my next teaching practice, and your insites have been very valuable to me.

Sorry Off Topic posting, but I felt I had to do it.

lisalisa · 27/03/2003 11:23

Message withdrawn

Jimjams · 27/03/2003 11:29

Awww you're all so sweet! No really the only point of the post was to say don't judge. Hope it explains why I get rather riled when I see people judging without any attempt to understand another's pov.

And hmb- you don't fancy moving to Devon do you- we could really do with some more teachers who want to understand autism (actually I'm being unfair as quite a few do- it't just the ones who don't inflict such appaling damage).

Ghosty · 27/03/2003 11:29

Jimjams ... you are so right with your posting ... I had a similar thing recently from the other side ...
I was with a friend (childless one) out one day and there was a mum in a shop. I was carrying my DS (3 yrs) as he was tired but was persuading him to walk a bit. The other mum was carrying her DS who seemed much bigger than my DS. We looked at eachother in sympathy and chatted about tired children (as you do ....). She asked me how old DS was and I asked her how old her DS was ... she said he was 5 and a half. She put him down at one point and he lost the plot ... not just a tantrum but wailing, pointing, rocking. As we left the shop my friend said that she was shocked at that spoiled boy and how terrible his mother was for letting him be like that, and why wasn't he at school anyway ... she was really p***d off about it. I said to her that I didn't think it was 'normal' behaviour for a child of that age and I thought that he probably had autism or something like that. Later that morning we all ended up in a coffee shop at the same time and I got chatting to the other mum ... guess what? She told me that her son was autistic ... I really felt for her and the hard time she obviously had with him. At the same time I felt quite proud of myself that I was able to spot it and NOT judge her ... my friend felt a bit guilty I have to say.
Jimjams your posting was fantastic and I think really drives home the point that we must not judge others .... thank you .... hugs to you, your DS and the rest of your family .....

Marina · 27/03/2003 11:31

Jimjams, thank you for that thought-provoking and brilliant post.

katierocket · 27/03/2003 11:34

that really made me think Jimjams. It is so easy to make snap judgements based on your own realm of experience and knowledge. Definintely something to remember.

tigermoth · 27/03/2003 12:19

jimjams, great post.

mum2toby · 27/03/2003 13:02

Fair point Jimjams. But I think it's fairly obvious that I'm not judging people on their parenting skills.

I know this will cause an uproar, however, I think that people who have had their children circ. without anaesthetic purely for religious reasons try to justify it by saying things like:

It's Jewish Law.
It's a spiritual ritual essential for his upbringing.
It doesn't really hurt for very long.
It makes them cleaner.

It doesn't change the fact that it hurts and can be done with a local anaesthetic (CREAM) but some people choose not to. WHY?

I have asked if it is written in Jewish law that an anaesthetic cream cannot be used. If it can and there is no religious objection then why not try to make it as least traumatic and as painless for the child as possible???

Batters · 27/03/2003 13:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Enid · 27/03/2003 13:10

Sometimes you read something on mumsnet that really makes you think - thanks for that Jimjams.

Jimjams · 27/03/2003 13:16

Mum2toby- no you are not judging people on their parenting skills, but you are making judgements based on your pov and with little knowledge of what the procedure involves or even how painful it actually is. Other people here have described the procedure- I see no reason to doubt what they are saying. This is the same as judging someone's parenting skills whilst having no knowledge of what is actualy going on in their life.

I think others have been far more judgemental than you (comparing circumcision to child abuse for example) and my posts are aimed even more at them.

I believe that without having witnessed a circumcision we are not in the position to make a strong judgement either way. If I had seen ten circumcisions where the baby cried uncontrollably for days afterwards then I would draw conclusions, but it doesn't sound as if that is the case at all. For now I'll believe what the mothers who have had their child circumcised are saying.

Enid · 27/03/2003 13:17

Well mum2toby, for goodness sake, what do you want to hear? That people circumcise their children because they like to see them suffer? I don't think so...

And I would have thought if you are Jewish that 'Jewish law' is a good enough reason to circumcise your baby.

People have bent over backwards to justify their personal decision to you but if you can't see that I feel sorry for you.

lisalisa · 27/03/2003 13:32

Message withdrawn

mum2toby · 27/03/2003 13:34

No Lisalisa - I'm saying that I don't think that religious LAW is a good enough reason.

Jimjams · 27/03/2003 13:53

mum2toby- so what are you saying? You're not religious, therefore religious law isn't a good enough reason? We're right back to seeing things from someone elses pov. How much do you know about Judeism? If you're like me then not a lot- so how can you have an opinion on whether circumcision is justified or not by religious law.

Lisalisa- I menitoned about the bloodtests- Mum2toby you don't need to anaesthatise against every minor pain. Are you going to insist on anaestheic cream when you take your ds/dd for vaccinations. After all lisalisa's dd cried more with those than her son did at his circumcision.

I have a feeling we are banging our heads against a brick wall. A not unfamiliar experience for me.

BTW thanks for your kind words everyone. The final irony is that the trip to the pony farm was a successful outing for us!!! (Unsuccessful would have been refusng to mve at all from the door and returning to the car woithout seeing anything except the gift shop door!)

hmb · 27/03/2003 13:57

Mum2toby, and I think that is why the argument will go round and round with no conclusion. I have no religion of my own. But as I understand it circumcision is a visible sign of a covenant made between God and the children of Abraham. In the end when it comes down to religious faith, for those that have faith no explanation is necessary, and those without no explanation is possible. For an observant Jew or Muslim, this would break a central tenant of their faith, and break a chain that goes back thousands of years. Jews were put to death for circumcising their children; it is not something that they can put aside, even if we cannot understand it.

lou33 · 27/03/2003 14:02

Local anaesthetic cream is not approved for use in very young babies, so not recommended apparently. Ds had to have countless blood tests from only a few days old, and we just had to get on with it.

mum2toby · 27/03/2003 14:53

Again for the examples here are medical reasons.

Yes this argument will go round in circles. I am not religious therefore I can't understand why anybody would inflict pain on their child for reasons other than medical.

Religion has a lot to answer for. If Tony Blair made it law that I inflict pain on my child I would rebel against it no matter what the cost.

Furball · 27/03/2003 15:10

He has sort of with the MMR, which we and many others kindly refused. We also refused circumsion. Some have had the MMR, Some have been circumsised some have had both. It all boils down to what YOU believe is right for your child.

I am not lumping MMR with circumsion - just using it as an example as to another choice we have in the love/care we have for our children.

Jimjams · 27/03/2003 15:33

but mum2toby even the medical reasons for inflicting pain aren't cut and dried. For example anojther thread talked about the pros and cons of cochlear implants- no right or wrong answers there- just different choices with their own set of pros and cons.

Whilst I can understand why you choose not to circumcise your chidren I think it is wrong to say that anyone who does is misguided and wrong as you don't know enough about the process itself or their reasons for doing so.

Back to the medical example I can understand for example why people choose cochlear impants and also why they don't. No idea which I'd chose in those circumstances and wouldn't pretend to.

I think you have an image of the pain that appears to be at oods with what people like lisalisa are telling you. They are talking about a pain that appears to be similar to that inflicted by vaccinations. Indeed the after effects may be less painful (if you have seen a child have a side effect to a vaccination you will know what I mean). Now you deem that the potential medical advantages outweigh the pain in delivering the vaccinations and so you vaccinate. I choose not to vaccinate - not in terms of pain- but because I deem the potential benefits to not outweigh the potential side effects. Having said that I can understand why you vaccinate, and I'm sure if you follow my arguements earlier in the thread you will understand why I choose not to. Circumcision is the same- for people who circumcise for religious reasons- the advantages in a spiritual sense outweigh the pain. Who's to say that religion is any less valid than medical? You can't really comment if like me you are not religious.

So again- before judging and saying that people are wrong you need to see things form their point of view- and we come back to flash judgements made in pony farms with no background to a situation at all.