circumcision yes or no

[morocco]

My 5 month old has a tight foreskin and doctors here recommend circumcision but Im really not keen. I spoke to docs in the UK and they said to wait and see but then I started worrying about whether it would be traumatic for him to be circumcised at say 4 or older and whether it might be better to just go ahead now. Has anyone been through this with a child of this age/older? All advice gratefully received

Message withdrawn

I have kept out of this discussion, facinating as it is, as I have no useful information to add. One thing has struck me regarding the use of local anaethetics. If you need a small number of stitches you are often advised not to have an anaesthetic, as it would cause you more pain in being delivered that then stiches would cause being put in. I don't think that you should rule out the possibility that they same holds true for circumcision. (Ds not done, Dh almost had to be done as an adult)

lisalisa- what an ordeal!! That's awful! I will write more later- can't write now as ds1 is back from nursery.

hmb- yes that's a good point. When ds1 had to have lots of blood tests (about 8 weeks ago- he's 3) they wanted to do it with the least stress possible. They decided that the best way was to basically pin him down and get on with it. No creams, no sprays, nothing.

for the same reasons as hmb I have kept out of this discussion recently. The last time I posted I was sitting on the fence, and that's where I still am, though I am leaning over in Croppy and co's direction. Anyway, a question has occurred to me.

In discussing the pain of circumcision, are we assuming that every 8-day-old baby has the same pain threshold? I wonder if this is true?

I know that my two boys, from toddlerhood at least, had different reactions to pain. My oldest seemed to feel pain much more quickly than my youngest.

Excuse my ignorance jimjams, but can you tell me what you mean by "autoimmune diseases" on your husband's side?. What sort of disorders come under this heading?

From the contributions to this discussion the degree of pain seems to vary widely; from lisalisa's son who hardly felt it to ghosty's screeching baby and tissy's haemorrhaging. And as for bobbins' links. I'm sure a lot of the difference is down to the skill of the "surgeon", but at the end of the day, why would anyone want to put their son through such a potentially traumatic procedure? .. in the name of religion - religion has so much to answer for.

From the contributions to this discussion the degree of pain seems to vary widely; from lisalisa's son who hardly felt it to ghosty's screeching baby and tissy's haemorrhaging. And as for bobbins' links. I'm sure a lot of the difference is down to the skill of the "surgeon", but at the end of the day, why would anyone want to put their son through such a potentially traumatic procedure? .. in the name of religion - religion has so much to answer for.

sorry for double post.

Why did God put the foreskin there if he didn't like it after all?

Good point, zebra! Perhaps God made a design flaw! (Sorry in advance if too flippant.) Is there no reasoning in the Bible about why God requires the foreskin to be removed? Lisalisa, I'd be interested to know the specific passage of the Old Testament which refers to it - or is it written somewhere else?

Also, relating to Holly2's earlier post, I'd have thought that better education regarding sensible/safe sex practices would be a better way to avoid HIV/Aids, syphilis, gonorrhea etc than circumcision??? I don't feel the claimed reduced risks are an adequate medical reason for circumcision, IMO.

I am not Jewish (lapsed baptist) but a quick google came up with a very interesting orthodox website that has an excellent (to my untrained eyes)FAQ on Judaism The relevant section says

The rite of circumcision is one of the most ancient practices of Judaism. The commandment to circumcise male children was given to Abraham in the Torah (Genesis 17:7-14) [English translation from 1917 JPS Tanach]:

And G-d said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that should shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.

It is repeated in the Torah in Leviticus 12:3, and has remained throughout history as one of the most important commandments. It has already led to martyrdom in Maccabean times (I Macc. 1:48,60).

Circumcision is (in general) a common denominator among movements: Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Orthodox--all circumcise their male children and require male converts to undergo some form of circumcision.

Furthermore, faith is the only reason that Jews should circumcise their male children. In Moreh Nevuchim (Guide for the Pereplexed), chapter 49, the Rambam says: "No one, however, should circumcise himself or his son for any other reason than pure faith; for circumcision is not like an incision on the leg or a burn on the arm, but a very difficult operation."

Current medical fashions play no role in circumcision, as it is a religous rite to Jews. Thus, it is pointless to attempt to argue for or against circumcision from a basis of medical need.

As said in the Reform Responsa addressing circumcision: "Circumcision remains for us an essential sign of the covenant. We have affirmed it since the days of Abraham, our Father, and continue to affirm it".

The website address is at www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/index.html, and it is very interesting.

Lisalisa, I hope that you don't mind me butting and answering that one question. I have found your postings highly informative. I have no religous practice of my own, but I believe that repecting the beliefs of others is a central part of civlisation.

lisalisa- time to reply properly at last. The first few months of your son's life sounds horrendous. I know form experience that the hardest thing to deal with is when you have one hit after another after another. I always feel I can cope with one bad thing but when you keep getting hit again and again it's just awful. Glad he's better now though!- What a relief after such a traumatic start.

So glad you weren't browbeaten into vaccinations. Nothing surprises me about the medical profession these days. I think that's what makes me so angry about the whole thing. The argument is given in very black and white terms- if you don't vaccinate your child will die, if you do vaccinate there will be absolutely no side effects. When of course the argument has many shades of grey to it. I get so annoyed that no attempt is made to identify childen who shouldn't be given the standard program.

I don't think that antibiotics themselves are the problem with autism- it's more what they do to the gut bacteria. A really common link between a lot of autistic children is an awful lot of antibiotics in the first year of life. That was certainly the case for ds1. We also know that he has a leaky gut- there is a rather unusual byproduct of tryptophan metabolism in his urine- which may come form dodgy gut bacteria - and is believed to be an indicator of a leaky gut. this cuases problmes becuase it means bigger molecules than usual get through the gut wall- including weird breakdown products of gluten which basically act as opiates on the brain. The blood brain barrier is also leaky. Hence he has a gluten free diet. Of course these leaky memebranes could go some way to explaining why the MMR damaged children have measles in the brain I guess. Another interesting point is that the MMR damaged children have the same urinary profiles as gulf war vets with gulf war syndrome. Common link? Now let me see- oh yes vaccinations. Leaving aside MMR a lot of parents I've spoken to suspect the baby jabs as much as any- I've been amazed how many of their children suffered convulsions after them for example (ds1 didn't). Of course this is all denied by the drs, but unfortunately in general they haven't read any of the research (and there is a fair amount out there now). It's a shame as there is a lot that can be done to correct the metabolic problems and this can make a huge difference to the life lead by the autistic person. I find it hard to say where my son comes on the spectrum. He'a affectionate, cuddly, warm, loving, funny, does lots of things he isn;t meant to be able to (like remember people's names, match names to faces, has reaosnable eye contact, tease, understand meaning from my tone of voice....) etc etc the list goes on. BUT he has a severe language problem- very severe. Particularly with speech (although I was told I was imagining that- then they remembered that he has failed hearing tests- we'll see). So I think his autism isn't too bad, but his language problem is. Not sure the professionals agree with me. Having given up on them we're off to BIBIC in June to get a proper assessment carried out by people who actually - goodnes gracious heavens above- understand autism. I can't wait to discuss his problems with people who actually know something about the condition and are positive.

I like Son Rise as it's child centred and doesn't teach that autism is "bad" (some behavioural programs do imo). i've just been lent a book about it actually. I do try to incorporate floortime into our day sometime- he responds well.

The th2 type immune system stuff, Now this rapidly gets complicated- basically there is an increased ratio of one type of immune cell- TH2- in simple terms this makes you more susceptible to allergies, autoimmune conditions and por at eliminating pathogens. Vaccinations push the immune system further into this - so you have even more th2 cells and are at even greater risk etc- it unbalances you basically.

Croppy- dh's close family have type 1 diabetes, MS, gout, very early skin cancer-not really autoimmune but dodfy immune syste,- psoriasis and severe eczema (atopy rather than autoimmune- but the two are related). Basically an autoimmune disease is one where the body attacks itself. It is very very common for autistics to have a family history of autoimmune conditions.

Phew- long post. Right circumcision anyone? Thanks for that post hmb- interesting. The only stuff I knew about the beginning of the practice came from the book The Red Tent!

Caroline5, I suppose that better education re: hygiene, safe sex practices, etc would help the cause for being uncircumcised. But then on the other hand, having this very short procedure done straight after birth would save the person a lifetime of having to be meticulous about cleanliness & hygiene, if you know what I mean.

A section of this medical report on circumcision states, "There are now more than 50 studies in reputable journals showing neonatal circumcision decreases the risk of penile infections, neonatal urinary tract infections, some STD's, HIV/AIDS, and cancer of the penis, but not one study shows that the same benefit can be achieved by personal hygiene."

Other benefits include: (Extracts are from the Medical Observer publication and from the Australian Medicine magazine)

• Neonatal circumcision also prevents or reduces the risk of penile inflammatory conditions, some STD's and cancer of the cervix in female partners.

• Carcinoma of the penis virtually only occurs in uncircumcised men and a recent study suggests that the incidence may be rising, due to falling circumcision rates.

(And this will make everyone happy)

"If parents do decide to proceed with circumcision, the medical attendant should ensure that it is done by a competent operator, using appropriate anaesthesia."

Hope you don't mind me listing this stuff again but it's important for people to know that there is a positive side to this procedure.

please pro circ. answer this question which has been asked many times.
Would your dh get circ. as an adult without anaesthetic?

NO NO NO Fallala, I'm certain that adults would not have it done without an anaesthetic of some sort. My guess is it would probably be a local anaesthetic, but I'm not absolutely certain. Some men may wish to go for a general anaesthetic, but it may only require a local. Sorry your question hasn't been answered but it may be something you would have to ask a doctor about, or check it out further on the internet.

Health issues - which studies do people prefer to believe? Probably only those which support their existing views.
This website (and links from there) tells a very different tale from those previously mentioned.
One snippet - from the World Health Organisation 1995 report on AIDS. The number of AIDS cases per 100,000 population was - US 16.0, Canada 3.8, UK 2.4 (the rates of circumcised males are US 60%, Canada 17%, UK 5%). On this basis, it would appear that being circumcised is a strong risk factor for catching AIDS! (Like you, I think there's more to it than that.)
The comparative figures for STDs and UTIs between circumcised and uncircumcised men vary according to whichever surveys are read - and the viewpoints of the compilers of the statistics.

The foreskin does not cause penile cancer. In a letter to the American Academy of Paediatrics, the American Cancer Society stated that it "does not consider routine circumcision to be a valid or effective measure to prevent [penile or cervical] cancers. ...Penile cancer rates in countries which do not practice circumcision are lower than those found in the U.S." Penile cancer occurs at the rate of 1 in 100,000 males in the U.S. circumcised or not.

Well, whatever you think StuartC, there is literature to back up both sides of the argument. How carefully this information is sourced or how exact the statistics are, is another thing.

It has been a few days since I looked at this thread and it has taken me over an hour to catch up!

Just wanted to say thank you to lisalisa for coming into the discussion with the jewish side of the argument ... after I wrote my post about the circumcision that I attended I felt very much out of my depth as I did not feel I knew enough about the reasons behind the jewish circumcision laws. All I did know was that it was very important for my friend that her little boy was circumcised. Your posts have been really fantastic lisalisa and I have learned a lot ....
Just to quickly go back to my original story though ... it wasn't rubbish - we were there and we saw what we saw .... but that did not stop us respecting the deep religiousness of the 'occasion'. The family in question however were/are not orthodox like you lisalisa and as far as I can see they are the type of family that have circumcision as the only real sign of their faith like the ones you describe in your posts.
I would like to add that although I wouldn't circumcise my son without good medical reason I totally and utterly respect people's personal religious reasons and choices. On the same note ... I had my son vaccinated but totally and utterly respect people's reasons not to ... It is all a matter of choice isn't it?
And, my last note ... thankyou lisalisa, jimjams and others for turning a nasty unpleasant thread around to being an informative and interesting one .....

I still find that the reasons behind why jewish people circumcies their children without anaesthetic to be irrelevant!!! Why would a parent follow an ancient practice that causes their cild unecessary pain!!!??? IT CAN BE DONE WITH AN ANAESTHETIC!

Nobody has yet answered my question properly. Could that be because there is NO justification for it??

As for the cleanliness argument.... I have to wash my pubic region!! Should I have had my labia removed as a baby to make it easier for me to clean and prevent conditions such as thrush?

Mum2toby,

I posted something re the use of anaethetics a little while ago. If you are having a small number of stitches, you are often advised to go without an anaethetic, as giving it causes more pain. I don't know that this is the case with circumcision, but it is possible. The injection would (I think )have to be given into the body of the penis, which had far more nerve endings than the foreskin. Incidentaly my ds has not been circumcised. I am only 'thinking aloud' on the possible medical realities. I would be very interested if a mumsnet doctor would post with more information on this one.

And mum2toby I aso mentioned that my son (3) had been given lengthy blood tests without any "numbing" cream or spray - instead he was literally pinned down while he kicked and screamed- as it was decided that it would be less stressful for him that way. And that would have taken considerably longer than a circumcision- they had to get in a tube and fill about 10 tubes of blood s it took a while. Sometimes delivering the pain reliever can be worse than the pain of the procedure.

And mu2toby I think you are now judging. Have you ever seen a circumcision? I'm guessing no so how can you possibly have an opinion on how much pain it causes. Don't be quick to judge about things you know little about.

And for the record once again, neither of my sons have been or will be circumcised.

Fallala- not pro circ- neither pro choice- but-

I think there is a world of difference between circumcising a baby and an adult. I believe the foreskin can be removed from the baby with one clean cut whereas the adult would require a bit of hacking! Also as hmb has said- delivering the anaesthetic may be more painful than the actual circumcison- remember the baby isn;t bracing itself.

It's the same idea as doing my sons blood tests with no numbing cream. Your average 3 year old would be given spray before hand- as that would have freaked out my ds1 it was decided to pin him down (and I mean pin him down- he was kicking the place to pieces) and get on with it. All very traumatic for the couple of minutes it took but forgotten immediately he was released (doubt we'll get him in that room again though).

Reads a bit strange- what I mean is I am pro choice- not pro circ, not anti circ.

Oh and it occurs to me I had an ex who was circumcised as an emergency when he was about 7. He talks about the stress of not being able to pee and the absolute relief of the circumcision. he certainly never mentioned anything at all about pain, either during or after- although he talks about how hideous it was beforehand.

I don't understand the comparison between the circumcision of an 8 day old baby with an adult. Clearly it would be an utterly different operation. I am also confused as to why people think it would be necessarily so painful. I have a number of Jewish friends and they describe it very much as Lisalisa does. Perhaps a cry as you would get at a vaccination but within seconds, the babies are as if it had never happened.

I would have thought that there is a very good chance indeed that a local anaesthetic would hurt more.