circumcision yes or no

[morocco]

My 5 month old has a tight foreskin and doctors here recommend circumcision but Im really not keen. I spoke to docs in the UK and they said to wait and see but then I started worrying about whether it would be traumatic for him to be circumcised at say 4 or older and whether it might be better to just go ahead now. Has anyone been through this with a child of this age/older? All advice gratefully received

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Should this conversation not now be moved to the religion thread in 'Other Subjects'? It would be confusing for a parent who needed proper information on circumcision to read instead a debate about Judaism and Christianity. Or are people going to totally ignore me now because they want to have the last word?

Ok, to keep Rhubarb happy, if you're going to reply to my questions, Nicola3, please would you start another thread?

I have said before on another thread that I like the twists and turns that conversations take on Mumsnet. It is fascinating to come back to a thread after a few days and find that in your absence a fight has started over something that wasn't part of the original poster's point. What's wrong with that? Morocco's question has been dealt with, anyone reading the thread from the beginning can see that, and if they don't wish to carry on reading, they don't have to.
There are some strongly held views here, and as long as posters don't step over the bounds of decency, I can't see anything wrong with people expressing them. In the course of this thread it has been implied that I am a racist, and not a Christian; both accusations would leave me fuming if I was face to face with the people who said them . It is very healthy to be able to go away, think through a subject, and post a considered response.

And, Rhubarb, just because you want the thread to revert back to the original yes or no question,(which has been answered to morocco's satisfaction), it doesn't mean we all have to agree, does it? And I'm not after the final word, I want Nicola3 to tell me whether I'm off to hell or not

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The religion thread is called 'just something to share'

Tissy, I totally agree with you that one of the great things about Mumsnet is the way an interesting conversation/debate develops.

Lisalisa, how could you do that to your child? I simply will NEVER understand how you could do something so painful to a baby and not give him any choice in the matter when it is only to his detriment and will NEVER do him any good. I feel so grateful every day that I do not have any bizarre superstitious or 'religious' feelings that lead me to inflict harm on my child. And I feel glad for him too. Vaccinations are different- they are for his ultimate benefit. Circumcision does not benefit a child and who could worship a god that demands you hurt your baby? Not me. I don't care. I'm not racist. Religion is like politics - it is a choice you make about what you beleive. I do not believe that politics are beyond criticism and I certainly don't believe that religion is beyond criticism. I cannot - do not - understand how circumcision is compatible with love. Maybe I am very, very unimaginative, but I just can't see it. It would kill me to see some old bloke cut off part of my son's tiny little penis with a knife. They'd have to kill me first. I am perfectly serious about this. I don't ever hurt my son for any narcissistic beliefs of my own. I cried when he had his first vaccination and it hurt him. But it might stop him dying of disease. You can't say the same for circumcision. Once again. These comments DO NOT apply to circumcision for medical reasons. This is the same as any medical operation or vaccination. It is ritual or unthinking routine circumcision that I oppose so strongly. I must keep off this site, it is upsetting me so much at the moment. Particularly as it seems only extremely religious people are 'allowed' any sensibility on this matter. I cannot believe that I am every bit as hurt by the suffering of babies as they are by any 'insult' to their chosen and entirely artificial religion.

StuartC I entirely agree with you. Believe what you want as long as it doesn't harm others.

Lisalisa, you also say that circumcision is a sign that the person has 'chosen' to obey the jewish law. Well, frankly, you can hardly say than an eight day old baby has 'chosen' anything. So why not wait until your child is an adult, when they can choose?

lisalisa - whilst not wishing to show any disrespect for Jewish law (although, as I mentioned in a much earlier post, I am opposed to circumcision except for medical reasons) I was interested in your comments: "The brit mila is performed to initiate a baby boy into jewish life and to show that he is ready and willing to take on a life of jewish observance." "it is said that this is a sign that the child ( and adult ) is jewish and has chosen to keep the covenant with God"
which in my mind entirely contradict:
"the infant , at 8 days old, is not able to intellectualise anyway"

Why are Jews not able to leave the procedure until such time as the child (or more likely, adult) is able to intellectualise?

judethe obscure (fab name bytheway) I am n ot jewish but I have a suspicion the uptake amongst adult men would be fairly low...

I give up! I do agree that Mumsnet is great for discussions, but I also think that once discussions have moved from the original intention, a new thread should be started, especially when such personal remarks are being thrown around! I have opinions on this topic too, but think that they are best aired on the 'Something to Share' thread which is about religion.

Tissy, if you read the bible you will be able to find out for yourself whether you're off to hell or not. You will also be able to find out for yourself what a true Christian is if you read the bible because it's all in there. After all, it's only the BIBLE that is relevant to Christianity, not the Koran or any other book belonging to any other religion.

It says as clear as day in the New Testament that Christ was raised from the dead. His resurrection is also predicted in the old testament. If you don't want to believe it, that's up to you. So many other things in the bible are as clear as day, but people still have to twist and debate and argue about everything until the cows come home about what's true and what's not, because they don't want to accept what it so clearly written in the bible.

I wasn't rude or disrespectful to you in my post, but it sounds like you don't like the fact that someone disagrees with you. If you really want to know whether you're going to hell or not -- well what does the bible say about going to hell Tissy? If you look up all the criteria about going to hell in the bible, you will be able to work that out for yourself.

Well, I think that says more eloquently than I ever could why I think religion is more often harmful than helpful. Night night.

lisalisa - I wonder if you found my posting "rude, unpleasant, disrespectful, antagonistic, sensationalist, ill judged, unhelpful, and spoiling for a fight" as monkey did. If you did, then I apologise. I certainly did no mean to be offensive to you.
I have re-read my posting several times and cannot see anything objectionable.
I am (obviously) strongly opposed to non-essential circumcision and am pleased that the rates are declining in America. My objection to this operation is as strong as (I'm sure) yours is to female circumcision, which many people in parts of Africa believe is a requirement for young girls. I have read several postings in which people want female circumcision kept separate to the discussion about male circumcision - but they are related. They are both genital mutilation and usually unnecessary.

monkey - while it is kind of you to be offended on behalf of someone else, I must decline your invitation for me to leave this thread. The subject began with morocco being given conflicting advice from two sets of doctors. As can be seen from many of the comments, some people (doctors included) would circumcise even when this is not necessary. I would not like morocco's son to have this irreversible operation unless it was essential.

Aloha - I do not want to get drawn into a religious debate with someone who thinks it's clever to ask whether or not they are going to hell. If read Tissy's post you might understand.

Hence my post. As I said, if anyone's truly interested in the bible etc, instead of getting into a variety of slanging matches over this topic, it might be easier if they endeavour to find out for themselves. Sorry if it sounded offensive but my goodness this whole thread is full of offensiveness, isn't it? People on this thread are just waiting to attack someone else, so it hasn't left a very good taste in my mouth I'm afraid.

Tissy - apologise if my post sounded harsh. It's frustrating when you get taken the wrong way or have someone accuse you of being judgmental when that's not what you're trying to do.

The bible says what it says. I don't think it's right for people to attribute different meanings to something that is clearly written - that's all I'm saying. I think people only accept the parts of the bible that they want to accept, and regard the rest as fiction/rubbish/irrelevant? It's a whole document. You don't see the Muslims only believing in PART of the Koran - they believe it's their holy book and they accept the entire thing as such. The bible on the other hand has not been treated with the same respect. Anyway I hope you understand what I'm saying & I really don't want this to get any more unpleasant - as Rhubarb said it's not the right forum anyway.

Aloha, in my opinion, some of your comments aimed at causing shame and guilt to parents who have had their children circumcised are no less harmful than religion....

"Narcissistic?"...... "artificial religion?"
Very strong words to be using about people you don't even know, Aloha. I know you have strong feelings about this but please read through what I have posted below.

I've just dug out a copy of the literature I was given before ds was circumcised. There is some fascinating stuff in there and I would be glad to provide more information if anyone wants to 'scrutinise' it further, or check out its sources.

Here are some extracts from the article & various medical reports:
"There are medical benefits of neonatal circumcision in reducing the risks of:

• peri-urethral bacterial colonisation
• neonatal urinary tract infection, septicaemia, meningitis, renal failure and death
• phimosis and balonoposthitis
• carcinoma of the penis
• gonorrhoea
• syphilis
• herpes genitalis
• HIV and AIDS
• later circumcision with anaesthetic risks.

"...A study of 1304 consecutive patients in a Canadian army centre showed that the uncircumcised had nine times greater risk of syphilis and almost three times greater risk of gonorrhoea... (the list goes on)."

"Men who were uncircumcised were 2.7 times more likely to have HIV infection. Uncircumcised men were more frequently infected with HIV, and to suffer from genital ulcer disease."

"A further study was done prospectively; men who were not infected by the AIDS virus were followed until they became infected. In both studies, lack of circumcision alone increased the likelihood of AIDS infection some five to eightfold."

"...Wiswell et al reported from a study of 300 male children that uncircumcised boys had significantly higher total colony counts of uro-pathogenic bacteria."

"The evidence gathered is now so strong that Wiswell published this statement: "As a paediatrician and neonatologist, I am a child advocate and try to do my best for children. For many years I was an outspoken opponent of circumcision... I have gradually changed my opinion."

There is much more to the report but I would be here all day. The only thing wrong with circumcision, as far as I am concerned, is how the procedure is carried out. There is no excuse these days for unnecessary pain.

These are some of the reasons I had my son circumcised. Certainly not because I don't love him.

Aloha, I'd like to point something out if I may - you said to lisalisa "how can an 8 day old baby have 'chosen' anything?" Likewise, how can a young baby choose to be baptised? Nevertheless, many parents baptise their babies mainly for traditional purposes, not because the child wants to be baptised. Jesus was baptised at the age of 30, because it was his choice, and anyone who wanted to follow him also chose to be baptised, because it signified their commitment to follow him. How can a young baby possibly know the meaning of any of this? A bit hypocritical, parents baptising babies when they're not the slightest bit religious.

I know you'll say that one causes physical pain and the other one doesn't, but the fact is, how can a baby willfully participate in anything? Parents make choices on behalf of their babies every day.

Aloha, I have no problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with circumcision and stating your reasons why. I do however think it goes beyond the spirit of Mumsnet to judge those parents who do circumcise their children in the way you have done. There are many many aspects to other people's parenting that I disapprove of (feeding them crap and letting them watch excessive tv for one) but I would never in a million years suggest that they loved their offspring less than I do mine.

As it happens I'm an agnostic but I do think tolerance of other people's religious views is a vital ingredient of a civilised society.

Holly02 - I agree with you. I have been VERY harsh in my judgement of people who have had their children circumcised for reasons other than medical necessity. People seem to be moving away from the subject now.

The only issue I can see here, like you said, is the WAY the procedure is carried out. There is no need to cause pain when the procedure can be carried out painlessly.

I'm not knocking peoples religious beliefs, However, I am not religious so find it hard to understand that way of life. But I stand my ground in saying that it is beyond comprehension why it has to be done in a painful way!

If it's Jewish law to have this done, does that really mean it can't be done with anaesthetic - is it Jewish law to carry it out in such a way that causes a baby pain??

Mum2toby

Glad we've been able to reach some kind of truce.

As far as the Jewish law regarding circumcision, I don't really know if they'd allow anaesthetic for the baby or not - you'd probably have to ask lisalisa. Obviously hundreds (or thousands) of years ago they didn't have access to anaesthetics, but surely nowadays they would allow it. I really don't know.

Aloha has NEVER at any point said others love their offspring less than she loves her son, merely she does not, and will never understand how someone could do that to their child. (FWIW I feel the same way)

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