anyone who is unsure about MMR I urge you......

[CrushWithEyeliner]

to contact www.jabs.co.uk. I spent over an hour talking to the most informative, helpful, balanced Woman who listened to my DDs history and just gave me the most incredible insight into the world of immunisations.

DD has already had a reaction to a vaccine so obviously I have more of a worry, but she was still extremely impartial and what she said just screamed common sense. When all I get from my so-called healthcare professionals is "you must do it there is really no risk".

For example she asked me to think about the ways in which we "catch" these viruses, normally through the throat which then filters through to the stomach and rest of the body. The immune system hence processes these bacteria in a the natural way. Comparing this to a shot of the virus (with other chemicals) directly through the bloodstream and into the internal organs. This can be just one factor to cause a reaction in a child.

Now I am just using this as an example of one of many things we discussed, I am not trying to persuede anyone that this is Gospel, but I have come to the right decision for me and DD talking it through with an intelligent, informative person which is SO mush more that I got from my GP after DD had a bad reaction.

Anyway I just urge you to call them if you are unsure or worried, they are fantastic.

cote your/my/our generation were kids we had no idea about anything other than our little childish world! I can't believe you gave this much thought then. You knew how many kids? barely 100 other children? this is hardly a significant statistic. The govnt has access to worldwide data of billions not hundreds of people in making decisions!

the govenment may have a whole database of billions of people, but then again they could have 'lost' it!

It happens!

My cousin had a bad reaction to his measles vaccine as a child and now has Crohns and this is from the days before the MMR. I don't necessarily see the single jabs as the solution to avoiding that condition unless the single vaccines are very different now.

I think we are all very affected by our own personal experiences of all these conditions, regardless of whether or not they are backed up by stats. We will still believe what we have experience of rather than the results of studies done that prove otherwise. I bet there are very few people who have changed their minds by reading the research once they have made their mind up, unless their experience shows them differently. For that reason I think this kind of thread can never end happily.

On another point entirely and as a matter of interest, has anybody done a study on the incidence of regression autism (for want of a better phrase - sorry if that isn't the correct term) on those who have not had MMR? Does it occur and what were the triggers?

Woh there honey I was only urging people who are undecided to contact jabs for more help, and you are the one with the flawed information if you think that it is not injected into the bloodstream.

I was only trying to help undecided people it sounds like you are very pro MMR and great for you and your DC I am delighted.

My DD has had a horrendous reaction to a jab -I won't bore you with the details I am sure you won't care a fig- and I found jabs really informative they actually I
listened to what I had to say about the problems my DD had as a direct result which was more than my GP who. If you actually read what I said I was still pretty undecided and trying to make the right decision. But you really have to go through it to understand.

What a bloody ignorant attitude.

and teacher I am not preaching to anyone, it is what worked for ME and I thought perhaps one other person out there will feel more comfortable and informed about their decision through talking to this organisation that surely that is what it's all about?

This thing about autism, regression, MMR and the age it's given coinciding with the age that autism is diagnosed is a nonsense argument which has probably been put out by the state and which I hear cited over and over, yet in reality it makes no sense.

1 Because, autism is rarely diagnosed before the age of 2.5 anyway - my dd was diagnosed with severe autism when she had just turned 3.

2 Because although it is true that regressions do occur in children with autism at various times, the parents who feel that their child's autism was caused by a vaccination, such as MMR typically observe a spectacular, overnight kind of regression, where the child was talking and communicating normally, and their language disappears to be replaced by screaming.

teacher - Obviously measles complications weren't my favourite subject aged 7. What I am saying is that having grown up with all those kids, and their cousins and brothers and sisters, and knowing them NOW, I can safely say that I haven't seen nor heard of any permanent damage from measles.

This doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means it is rare.

I am not saying I hold vast statistics in my vaults. I am only saying that against expat's "I know two people who had measles and both are blind/deaf", I can safely state that out of the 1000+ people I know who have had measles, NONE have had any such grave and permanent complications.

crush, vaccinations are put into the muscle, not injected into a vein. Sorry but you are wrong on that account.

crush, it is not injected into the bloodstream. how else do you think they can just go 1-2-3 and done... if they'd have to look for a vein in a 18 month old, and even in a pre-schooler, they'd have to put on a bracelet, the child would have to make a fist and they'd have to screen the arm. they'd go in at the inside of the elbow. i am not trying to pick a fight here, but you are seriously misinformed (by the jabs woman) if you think that it goes IV.

please don't misquote me, Cote. it's bad form.

i qualified what i stated.

Expat is right, that was not a direct quote but my paraphrasing of these:

"my mother lost about 30% of the hearing in her right ear from measles she had when she was 7 years old.

I have a friend in Edinburgh who also got measles when he was 7, in the early 1960s. He is completely blind and deaf in one ear from complications of measles."

Which I paraphrased as "I know two people who had measles and both are blind/deaf". Fair enough, right?

What are you referring to when you say you 'qualified' your statement?

i said ' ButFWIW', Cote, before i even shared what happened to my mother and my pal Alan and then went on to further state that measles can be dangerous, not that it always is.

but feel free to keep harping on and on, Cote, because i'm used to it, but getting sick of it, so i'm off because it's starting to just piss me off and so isn't really worth it.

crush, i don't think that you have any right to call me "bloody ignorant". all i was trying to point out to you is that the friendly advice that jabs gave you isn't necessarily accurate. whether i am pro- or anti-MMR has nothing to do with this. and of course i think it is awful that your dd reacted badly to one of her jabs...

Thanks for sharing, and sorry you feel irritable tonight, but others can share what happened (or didn't) to their friends & family too, right?

Re: unlicensed drugs... my understanding was that the single measles jab was licensed here in the UK, and only became "unlicensed" because the Dept of Health refused to renew it. That is not the same thing at all as some sort of dodgy drug which has never been tested properly. But the myth has been allowed to perpetuate, because it suits the "immunise the herd for the greater good" theory.
I allowed both mine to have the MMR, but I would have preferred the option for single jabs. If there is a measles epidemic, then it seems unfair for the gov't to blame irresponsible parents for not taking up MMR, when a lot of those kids would have been given a single jab, had it been available.

Jabs aren't unbiased. At least they are not unbiased if you use the word to mean they assess all the evidence according to transparent criteria and and don't use it selectively to support a pre-decided point of view. They may be calm and matter of fact but that's slightly different.

Not read all of this but Sawyer64,

'9 Children die a year with Measles' - sorry this is a load of tosh. There have been very few deaths from measles in the last 15 years.

And re unlicensed drugs - there are many, many drugs given to children that are 'unlicensed'. Being unlicensed doesn't make them a Bad Thing.

A traveller boy suffering from an underlying lung condition died from measles in 2006. He was the first measles death in the UK in 14 years.

Any vaccination is a worry for parents as with each individual child there are reaction worries. Personally with regards to MMR I think there is alot of press about how awful it can be for your child to get measles, mumps or rubella but very little about how devastating it can be to see you child develop "normally" then have their MMR and their abilities regress and be diagnosed on the autistic spectrum which is something that many family's have experienced. The bottomline to this debate is alot of politics and I think the choice of the vaccine is totally personal to each set of parents and their opinions and experiences.

"However measles remains a problem where vaccination ratesare low. In Ireland 8 deaths from measles were reported to the CSObetween 1990 and 1999. In the outbreak in 2000 three children inDublin died (two died from pneumonia complicating measles and a thirdchild died from post-infectious encephalitis)"
----------------
So rry Smbk, slightly out with figures,and I did say this was out of date.I also didn't state where.

The 2nd dose of MMR was brought in 1999,which has had a major impact.

My Mum is deaf in one ear from measles. My eldest son is severely autistic. Sorry but I know which one I'd take.

I'm not reading the thread but will repost something I wrote on another thread yesterday:

For anyone wanting to know more I'd just advise reading the hearing diaries It's from a biased source, but the reporting of what was actually said does seem pretty fair. There isn't an alternative as apparently the transcripts aren't available. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that they will be published after the close of the hearing (in about 2 years time apparently
)

There's lots coming out of the hearing that has surprised me. Especially the stuff to do with Richard Horton. I can't see what they're going to get the 3 of them on- although I'm sure they will.

The other bit of good news is that I was surprised by IMFAR (international meeting for autism research - big international meeting for researcher in the autism field- over 1000 atteneded). Whatever the dept of health will have you believe research is going onto into the potential link between vaccines and autism including the MMR. This has by and large come about because this research is being funded by independent and parent led or parent set up bodies. Parents actually have increasing power - I heard it said several times during the conference 'we have to research this (this being various diverse things) because that's what parents want.' The potential links were talked about quite openly by some researchers there. Along with the other factors that might lead to a susceptibility. It was very encouraging indeed.

And I will just add that the researchers who work in this field reckon about 7% of cases of autism have been triggered by MMR. That's not huge numbers, but none the less if they're right, a number of families lives have been altered big time by the jab. Research has shown that MMR is safe for the majority of children. I doubt the 7% who may have been affected give a flying fuck fig about that. They're interested in what happened to their child. Usually not because they want to sue, but because they want to avoid it happening again to siblings.

I apologise honey but your posts were very aggressive to me for no reason. I am not going to say again that I just wanted to help people who are unsure. If you read my posts I said I am not saying it is Gospel, but they were more helpful for me as having a child who had an awful reaction to a jab than my own GP who knows me and DD. I still stand by that.

Crush- haven't read thread still- but if no one has suggested it do look at Richard Halvorsen's book - the truth about vaccinations. He's an NHS GP - and really has a sensible, helpful and realistic approach. I'm going to ask his opinion on which (if any) jabs ds2 and ds3 would benefit from and when.

jimjams, thanks for the book info. i've just ordered it off Amazon. which, btw, is cheaper than ebay!

i too am stuck in the dilemma of what to do and am watching this thread with interest.

dd had a reaction to the DTP (IMO) but the Dr's would not accept a link.

I have had measles so has H as did my parents and siblings. We have no family history of autism, auto-immune (if you don't count my occasional psoriasis) or crohns but I am still very anxious about MMR.

My concern is around the multiples in one hit issue. I just think it's such a lot for a child's system to deal with in one go.

DD is now 2.7 and I am wondering if her inherited immunity to measles would be sufficient for her to either not catch it or have a mild case if she weren't vaccinated.

Is anyone aware of any tests that could be done to ascertain a child's existing immunity?

I guess the big problem is:

the majority of kids will be fine with the MMR jab and won't get a potentially nasty disease, BUT a tiny % may get an even nastier condition. So what does the govnt do? it has to deal in big population numbers and so encourages the majority to take the jab and sacrifices the minority. Ultra shit if you are the minority but good for the rest of the population. This is true for most medicines as they can have unwanted side effects for the few..

So someone with more knowledge than me (Jim Jams?), please tell me what is the alternative for the govnt? cos I can't see one (and no single jabs have not been proven a safer as there are a few mums on this site who have said their child still got autism having had them - all drugs have side effects!)??????