Please help me with my seemingly incontinent 8 year old daughter - getting worried.

[StartingToGetVeryWorried]

My daughter is 8 (9 in october) and to put it bluntly she stinks! She always smells of wee and poo and it is very very very rare that she keeps her knickers clean all day.

Sometimes it is so mortifyingly embarassing as it is really quite strong and I cant imagine what others must think.

She potty trained normaly at about 2.5 yrs and although not as good as my son was was fine, usual amount of accidents.

She then had an accident when she was about 4 which involved hurting her bum and from then on started a cycle of holding poos in until she became severely constipated etc etc

It seemed to improve for a good while but recently over the last few months it is back with a vengeance.

Now she is approaching 9 I am really worrying for her as eventually the kids in her class will pick up on her as the stinky kid and start bullying her Im sure.

I keep finding knickers covered in poo and wee hidden stuffed at the back of drawers.

The part of it I dont understand is taht she doesnt seem to care - every night I lay her clothes out for the next day including clean underwear yet often she doesnt use the clean knickers and keeps on the dirty ones???

Can anyone give me any advice on how to deal with it?

It is not full accidents she is having, her knickers are normally stained with varying degrees of skidmarks from light to very bad but not actual full poos iyswim.

Im not sure where the wee comes into it but that is certainly an issue too.

HELP

Don't worry STGVW... you have realised that there is a problem now and you are doing something constructive about it. Look forwards not backwards

Please don't beat yourself up about it, you do think they will grow out of these things - you had tried to get help and were fobbed off. As laidback says you are now taking positive action. Hope all goes well this week

You're dealing with it now and thats what counts. I posted earlier to say my dd has similar problems, I treated her terribly for a while before I knew what was going on.

you def need to get a referral to your local 'poo nurse' - at least one of the hospitals near you must have a paediatric continence clinic

sounds like she's been constipated for a long, long time - chronic constipation also causes lots of wee accidents as well as the bowel is so full it presses on the bladder, so by sorting out the poo problem, you sort out the wee as well

ds2 was exactly like your dd - it took a lot of medication and an awful lot of time, but after 3 and a half years' treatment he's finally been discharged from the clinic, but with a pass card to go back if we ever need to

be prepared for the cure to take about as long as the problem built up in the first place - and things often get worse to start off with, so it might be an idea to push for a quick referral so you can start treatment in the summer holidays, but you will get there in the end

I had to go to hospital for an appt for ds1 the other day and saw the 'poo nurse' in the corridor and felt like rushing over to her and giving her a big hug = she completely changed my life - and ds2's too, so hang in there

Thanks for posting - at least you might have stopped others (like me) from doing the same thing. Reading this thread has made me realise that I am possibly builing up problems for the future with my dd, who has similar traits to the ones you describe. I am sorry too to say that I get cross and assume she is being lazy; now I am going to make sure I stop being so judgemental and start trying to find out what is behind the accidents and hidden pants. From everything posted I can see that what is vital is to keep the channels of communication open -not very likely when every accident is met by a groan of why on earth couldn't you have got to the toilet on time.

Oh Starting To Get Worried,

PLEASE don't beat yourself up, if you read those forums it takes AGES for most people to work out what is happening - and some people never do. You have done brilliantly reseaching this far.

Good luck with moving forward and I'm sure it will be sorted - (but it may take a while). Take care.

OMG!! I have 2 children like this Ds1 whois 10 and Dd1 who is 8. Ds1 is worse affected and he really smells at times. I always thought it was because he was too lazy to go to the toliet or wipe himself. He had a bowel xray once and that came back normal, but I suppose i should go back to the GP

Hi everyone

Thanks so much for your support, it is very much needed.

I feel so sad today, this problems seems to be a tricky one to solve and even with treatment takes a long time - I dread the thought of her entering her teenage years with this problem.

I am making an appointment today to see the GP I just HOPE they take me seriously and escalate it to a pedeatrician (sp)

I really need to work on my attitude towards it - she was really sad and miserable this morning and it makes me cross, dont know why but it does. I was trying to talk to her really sensitively but she just completely shuts down.

This morning we had a chat because she has swimming today and put her swimming costume on underneath her clothes, I said to her do you know how to go to the toilet wearing your swimming costume - you dont go swimming until 1pm. She said, I wont need to, I never go to the toilet at school.

I said you must! You should go at break and lunch time!

She said, I never do.

I said, sweetie, maybe if you go to the toilet more regularly at school it might help with keeping your knickers clean.

She got very upset and angry and just stormed away, got into her bed took her uniform off and hid under the covers.

Wouldnt come out for ages and we were going to be late.

I ended up getting a bit cross and yet again another day of her going into school looking sad and me feeling like shit.

Todays action plan:

Make a doctors appointment
Spend some good quality time with her this evening, just me and her.

Appointment made for 3.30 today for me to go in on my own and discuss the problem.

Any tips for how to get across that this needs to be sorted out and not dismissed?

'sweetie, maybe if you go to the toilet more regularly at school it might help with keeping your knickers clean.'

Ah, but that's the thing with chronic constipation; it takes away the urge to go to the toilet regularly. I don't think you're going to solve this without medication.

And you may well need to get the school involved. My friend's 8yo ds who has chronic constipation is allowed to use the staff loo to provide a more stressfree atmoshphere, and the dinner ladies are under instructions to prompt him to go at a set time. But you'll need to discuss this with your doctor. And he will no doubt be used to it; the condition is not that unusual.

Btw my dd (then aged 9) went on the school residential trip with incontinence pads. She was fine and nobody teased her. The more you can build up your dd's confidence, the less likely it is to become a problem.

STGVW

I agree with Cory - she has probably lost (or her body is confused) about all the signals to go to the toilet. By just stating you 'need to go to the toilet more' just re-enforces the message that it is her fault somehow. Her behaviours are all wrong.

Re - the doctors, at the very least you should request the doctor to arrange and xray or ultrasound to check if she is 'backed up' at all (impacted with stool). This would need to be cleared (probably suppositories) before instigating a regmime of stool softeners and regular 'sits' on the toilet.

Please don't let the doctor put you off, there are specialists out there - and you (and she) does need an urgent appointment.

Perhaps you could also request a further appointment with the doctor so he/she can explain it all to her, - to begin the process of moving the 'problem' from her to being a medical condition - that needs to be solved. (you should agree in advance with the doctor what is to be said).

Then you can build on that understanding with her to improve the trust / communication.

Your daughter is a very brave and couragous girl dealing with this. She needs treats and recognition!

Not sure if this is any good (or indeed free) but this is a kids resource to help explain things.

www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/bmc/ucp2/flash/login.html

I would back up all the advice to get proper medical help/support and stress that it is not her fault. Would also suggest if you can possibly afford it (and this is only a suggestion as I know everyone has different budgets/environmental concerns), buy lots of really cheap knickers (you can get packs of them for about 50p a pair in some places) and let her know she can throw the things away (ideally in a plastic bag) if they are dirty. Provide plenty of spares around so no one has to worry about washing/keeping in a bag when you are out/at school etc if they are dirty. Also I do find the wipes (toddler Kandoo variety or something similar) best for cleaning DD up after accidents.

Not quite the same thing, as my DD was only 4, but delayed development and Sotos. Started nursery still in pull-ups but the school did not have the privacy for her to be changed in school so her 'helper' used to take her to the teacher's toilets to change her - although some of the other children (at only age 4) noticed this and commented on it. My biggest concern was her starting school in pull-ups. She became clean and dry in the May before she started Reception in September but I was very aware of her having 'accidents'. I bought 3 packs (x 5) of knickers from Primark (about £2 each) and gave them to the school so if she had an accident in school they had clean (new) spare knickers. I also gave them nappy sacks so they could 'bin' the soiled ones. After one year in Reception (now in year 2) they gave me back 2 whole packs of new knickers but I told them to keep them in school as many other children have accidents.

The school were very good and helpful.

A friend's DS had this here at around aged 8 too. The school were helpful about encouraging him to go to the loo and after an xray when it was realised how impacted he had become, he had treatment and was then fine.

It's quite common I believe so I would hope the GP wouldn't fob you off.

Im really feeling so wretched.

I have f*cked up big time with this one.

I think there might be some work to do with her to even begin to be able to open up about it - Im not sure where to start with it and if I can actually do it without some help.

Maybe you should start by saying you are sorry to her- and let her know t is NOt her fault.

You need to take control- although you say she storms out, can't you follow her? What do you mean, when you say she shuts down? Does she ignore you? walk away? all of these things are changeable.if she shuts down, can't you still keep talking in a very gentle way? It sounds as if you are confrontational in one sense- saying if she went more often then she wouldn't soil her pants- which is quite a hurtful/blackamiling statement- but on the other hand you are allowing her not to listen to you and discuss it calmly.

IS she constipated? Does she ever have a normal poo? sorry_ I have read the thread but not all posts.

Can't you give her slim panty liners and wet wipes for school to at least help her cope with this? Is her diet ok- is she constipated because she doesn't eat the right foods, or drink enough water?

could that be the crux of the problem - that she's felt uncomfortable for whatever reason with using the school toilets, so got used to holding back bowel movements - hence the constipation and now overflow problems?

Please try be positive - by now you've been to the docs and hopefully they were supportive and helpful. You also have the whole summer holidays (the absolute ideal time) to try to make changes. Timing wise this couldn't be better to move forward from.

It is hard and you both will get though this. But you absolutely must let her know you now don't believe it is her fault. No matter how defensive she is (and her somewhat odd behaviour IS rooted in shame and humiliation)she WILL be relieved to hear this. (she just may not show it immediately).

If this problems was caused by not going to the loo at school then half the children in the class would have this. Her behaviour is an effect of her constipation, overflow and her (temporarily)damaged defecation reflex. You are also giving her false hope / expectations if it can be cured by going to the toilet every hour - 'tis more complicated.

But it is hard - this is such a taboo subject and I am sure it is hard to talk to anyone about it.

Dd and I are in a situation that at least partly touches on this one. Both because it involves incontinence problems (though those are actually what I cope best with) and because it can be incredibly difficult to know when she is as bad as she says, when she could do something about, when a flare-up may be due to something she did/omitted to do the previous day. In other words, the whole big apportioning of blame thing.

I have felt what worked best was to step away totally from the whole idea of my fault/your fault and treat it as any other problem that might arise through nobody's fault, say chickenpox or shortsightedness. These things happen. Nobody is going to judge me as a parent.

Diagnosis was a big help. Once you have a name you can talk about things without shame. I would do very little about this with your dd until diagnosis.

Though it won't hurt to tell her that 'I'm sorry, I was wrong, I've been reading it up and now realise you've got a medical problem, we'll get you some treatment'.

Once we got some treatment, that reinforced her feeling that things weren't her fault, which was a help in itself.

The next job was stepping back. Instead of nagging, dd and I have agreed a few basic ideas (e.g. she is responsible for parts of her treatment, dirty knickers to be left
by the bath etc)- and I leave her to it.

Cory

Couldn't agree with you more. Treat it as an external medical problem (which it absolutely is even though it touches on behavioural aspects)- just as for any other tricky medical condition.

Depersonalise the whole thing - it does have a medical name, there is a diagnosis, other people have had it, and got better - this is so much a less shameful situation and you both may be able to talk about it in a more practical and matter of fact way.

Also agree it is important to get a formal diagnosis from the professionals and work from there - it will help everyone and it might take away some of the blame feelings.

Again good luck, and hope the docs went well. I do feel for you - having has some experience in this area (now sorted).

My friend has a ds who was still wetting and soiling at the same age.

There was nothing wrong with him - BUT he was chronically constipated which lead to overflow incontinence and lack of bladder sensitivity.

She needs to see a paediatrician; get prescribed some major laxatives to clear the backlog and start a maintenance regime of stool softeners.

At the same time she needs a toileting regime which fits in with a school day so she doesn't go at school. School toilets are so terrible NO-ONE poos there.

I think you will have the summer hols to deal with this so by Sept she is sorted.

Look at the ERic website - www.eric.org.uk/Parents/tabid/58/Default.aspx

I think the "rock&pop" advice about how to empty a bowel is very helpful

www.eric.org.uk/portals/0/downloads/Get%20going%20be%20regular%20and%20learn%20to%20manage%20your%20 bowels%20june%202006.pdf

Don't panic - you can do this.

i have a ds aged 7 who is incontinent.Where are you? Dr Anne Wright at Evalina Childrens Hosp at St Thomas, London, is worth any journey to see. Ask for a referral at your GP, she is a leading specialist in the world on this, a truly lovely lady.

and meant to say, don't beat yourself up at all m'dear, it a very hard subject for a parent ,i speak from much experience

Hope the doc went ok and you are feeling more positive.

My friend whose DS had the same thing was left feeling totally guilty as she had been shouting and nagging for 3/4 years before seeking help. Please don't beat yourself up. You DID try to seek help - you should have been told that there could be a problem and given a deadline by which if nothing had improved you could go back.